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The Truth About Trash And Nimbys


by turfgrrl


June 23rd, 2008 · 62 Comments

Presumably people who are interested in public policy should know how our local government works. But sadly George Carlin is right when he said it takes about 8 seconds to determine if someone is stupid. Today’s Hour:

According to Lauricella, the trash-hauling issue has spawned a group called Neighbors For Open Government. A petition is circulating asking the “Common Council to table the two City Carting items on their Tuesday, June 24, agenda and hold a second public hearing next week in order to continue the fact-finding process,” Lauricella said.

“Every chance to better understand the details is a good think,” said Lauricella, referring to the presentation Tuesday. “However, again less than one week’s notice is not enough, especially when these details (are explained) less than an hour before they are voted on by council.”

Since the issue of the expiring transfer station contract has been on the agenda of the public works committee for close to two years, and that these committee members have had weeks to pursue any question on the issue, it would seem somewhat disengenous for anyone to say that there hasn’t been enough time to discuss the issue. Especially when if you click through meeting minutes you can see who attended and when. Like this one in December of 2007.

11. Update on solid waste disposal efforts.
Mr. Alvord said that they received three proposals this week. The cost proposals will not be opened until they go through the technical proposals in late January or early February 2008.
12. Update on recycling efforts.
The contract runs through 2013. There is an opportunity to withdraw from the contract if notice is provided by June 30, 2008. Mr. Alvord said that he intends to enter into an arrangement with City Carting for cost savings. He said that the amendment is being drafted now.
13. Status of FEMA claims.
Mr. Alvord said that they received all of the money from FEMA that they are going to receive. There are three projects that need to be completed.
Ms. Lauricella suggested that there be an effort to include the Conservation Commission.

Yet that is exactly what is being said, by council people no less.

“Until those traffic reports and environmental reports are in, I don’t think it’s going anywhere. Maybe there will be some answers. I want to see what the traffic reports say,” said Councilman Douglas E. Hempstead, a Republican. “There’s a lot of good things in this proposal too — the operation of Crescent Street as a recycling center, and the proposal cuts $1.5 million in costs. (But) I don’t see it coming to a vote. I really don’t.”

And those reports were asked about when? Not in October of 2007.

 10. Update on solid waste disposal efforts.

Mr. Alvord said that the RFP has been out since September 7th. There has been tremendous interest in it from companies all over the United States. A pre-proposal meeting was held on the 24th with a good turnout. Mr. Alvord said that there are mandatory site visits to the transfer station, which Malcolm Pirnie is scheduling.

11. Update on recycling efforts.

Mr. Alvord said that it was likely that the City would withdraw from SWEROC and execute a change to the current contract with City Carting whereby they will pay the City $15 a ton for every ton of recyclables that they collect.

And despite months of updates, and work on RFPs and acceptance of bids and so much process and paperwork they still need time to get comfortable voting?

Councilwoman Laurel E. Lindstrom, a Democrat, said she cannot see herself “being comfortable voting on this that soon after” the public hearing Wednesday and presentation by Alvord on Tuesday.

“My feeling is we’re going to have to table it again. It’s just too soon. You don’t ever want to vote (shortly) after a public hearing. You really want to think through what the options are,” Lindstrom said.

Except that there’s no new information that the Council will get from a public hearing except the usual NIMBYists conflating issues that have nothing to do with the actual proposal. Foremost amongst them is the fact that the Meadow St facility is already a transfer station that is permitted to process 500/tons a day. And that there are other transfer stations, privately held, in the same general area.

But let’s not get real facts get in the way of a fairly mundane issue. CRRA will charge more and do less. It’s the recourse should the Council not authorize the new proposal. And should the Council not authorize the new proposal, one has to ask what they were doing in the months leading up to this? Surely, wasting staff time by allowing the new plan to be crafted in the first place, springs to mind.

source: The Hour, Controversy builds over proposed trash contract, by Robert Koch, June 22, 2008

Tags: In the News

62 Responses so far “The Truth About Trash And Nimbys”


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  • 1 anon // Jun 23, 2008 at 11:37 am

    We saw this down the road on opening night of the council when newbies positioned themselves into committee chairmanships. If you don’t know what you’re doing, do us all a favor! This is serious business!

  • 2 Anonymous // Jun 23, 2008 at 11:45 am

    I guess we just have to vote these clowns out of office. And shame on the public for not paying attention.

  • 3 Anonymous // Jun 23, 2008 at 11:56 am

    its funny what draws the atention of some people who havn’t done their job at times right .Some may not want this can of worms to open and show how business in the city has been coducted by others who havn’t got a clue and is taking orders from others who should of never been put in a position they are in now.

    The way most of us see it is there has been plenty of time to get more than what 1 legit bidder for our trash,and yes NIMBY is working rather well on most issues in Norwalk now people are tired of the upper crust crap going on behind closed doors.

    Charge more and do less is what every dept in the city is doing now.

    I guess my first question would be how did the other 6 yes thats right six communities get the information before the committee three weeks ago and on top of that were told two cities are waiting to sign on.You really think if this was such a great idea Stamford would be doing it themselves?

    takes about 8 seconds to determine if someone is stupid.yep watch cable when the mayor is on and tell me Goerge was wrong.

  • 4 Anonymous // Jun 23, 2008 at 11:57 am

    Why be seen doing work when you can just rubber stamp every braindead plan of Alvord? You can be sure that Laurel has been asking questions and demanding data and facts all along. A heartfelt thanks to you!

  • 5 .Anonymous // Jun 23, 2008 at 12:09 pm

    Number 4 what are you joking about Laurel ? Laurel is a mental lightwieght. If you think she is asking any relevant question and demanding data and facts, you are joking. She is useless. Cant even get a committee chairmanship. Shows what her colleagues think of her. Go back to the civic group. It is where she belongs.

  • 6 Anonymous // Jun 23, 2008 at 12:18 pm

    Perhaps if these people started asking questions of their own and not scripted ones from political leaders they could get answers that the taxpayers want to know.

  • 7 Anonymous // Jun 23, 2008 at 12:25 pm

    Laurel doesn’t need a committee chairmanship to be effective. She does her homework.

  • 8 Anonymous // Jun 23, 2008 at 12:31 pm

    Laurel, is that you? You don’t need to defend yourself, just be more of a representative to the taxpayers that elected you and not the political, backseat drivers.

  • 9 Anonymous // Jun 23, 2008 at 1:11 pm

    google lajoies scrap yard norwalk

    second listing is our own Ct Blog amazing where Norwalk sits on search Engines,the topic traffic on a busy route number.This subject goes beyond who wants what who doesn’t its about quality of life thanks Ct blog for making it happen.

    bottom line if it effects a lot of people and you didn’t hear about it now its life.Shouldn’t make it any less of a priority to stand up and ask questions.

    As far as council members asking questions when it came to trash one council member was asking when curbside pickup may come to her area, I never realized there was areas thay had to rely on private or self service at the transfer station, where are the numbers going to come from that? Thet her was not laura besides pick on some councilors who are more than out for themselves and not others .

    I’m glad Doug is thinking about the whole pictures and not just Hals way of painting a picture to sell on ebay.

  • 10 MGeake // Jun 23, 2008 at 1:40 pm

    I find this whole thread fascinating. A number of us were not even on the Council in October 2007, yet were are being criticized for now asking questions you think should have been asked then. By logical extension, you are saying we should not do our jobs now because they did not do [what you perceive to have been] their jobs then.

    Sorry, I don’t work that way.

  • 11 turfgrrl // Jun 23, 2008 at 2:15 pm

    MGeake: Oh please, you can’t seriously suggest that you jumped into the council without getting caught up on all outstanding projects? But let’s take what you preposterously suggest at face value. From November 2007 through today, this item has been on the public works committee agenda. You really want to go down the path of why your council colleagues managed to sit on how many meetings without ever asking any questions or asking for more data on this issue?

    In fact, they may have, the meeting minutes are missing and the ones there don’t indicate what may have been asked. Someone above is implying that Laurel Lindstrom did. I don’t know.

    I don’t accept any statement made by any council member that this was a last minute project, as if updates never happened at meetings. This in fact is similar to the issues I had with the BOE, rubber stamping Corda and Opdahl’s “pronouncements” without check.

    Then, as in now, I place the blame on the parties who were supposed to be managing the process. And that they stop using a BS excuse that they, like Sargent Shultz, know nothing, and can’t act.

    To me, this is the proverbial dog ate my homework excuse. It didn’t fly in school, and certainly shouldn’t fly in government.

  • 12 anon // Jun 23, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    What does Laurel do for a living?

  • 13 Anonymous // Jun 23, 2008 at 4:02 pm

    If council members could take care of business and not wetnurse police fire dpw and other depts Norwalk has maybe they could learn about such things even after elected.

    Blame for what?

    Anyone been in Norwalk politics does know after all these years until the carpet is pulled out from under the chosen few this was not going to happen accountability was not going to be on the menu.

    As far as knowing whats been going on why do we have a hazardous waste site next to a new business zoned for constructuion yet most who are working on this new site on Woodward are unaware what sits next door?

    last minute screw job is more of the term, again how did officials in Stamford get the terms to dump rubbish in Norwalk before Norwalk council get the contract to read?

    Tipping fees were worked out, steel,brass,and other metal prices continue to climb yet we have showed a deficit in these areas,so much to absorb yet when do we ask what already has been passed on Lajoies and new building on Woodward ave?

    The DEP was amuzed about how you can go online and get information yet its in its archives in Hartford and their own personal have to go to the basement for the info.The EPA was surprised the information they have been waiting for out of Norwalk was anywhere but lost.

    Just maybe Norwalk may have to do things another way to conform to outside agencies for a change and do things like other cities the old fashion way HONESTLY.

    Where is the health study? Norwalk hospital was never set up for one yet St Vincents and Stamford hopsitals have done one or have asked to do one on the meadow st area . I find that interesting how outside agencies have interest in the area and Norwalks pride and joy seems to be missing from the mix.

    Traffic and health reports are where? Do we trust Hal to deliver anything less than favorable?

    Where did the traffic studies go for thru trucks Rowyaton relied on so much with the state? You think we have fools working in the state that are watching this happen?

    Where is the legal limit of pollutants this new facility can add to the what 45 other places in South Norwalk?

    Next to the power plant isn’t the stack at Roodner court the second most largest legal emission source? Why not touch upon this subject those numbers should be around when the new business’s were able to build oon Woodward ave.Whats coming out of those stacks? Does anyone have any idea?

    Going back to what council members should know what is the number to the office and staff to ask those questions of the council? Who does all that running around like Norwalk does for the developers and connect the city programs?

    yes we are always looking to point fingers at anyone who stops the process once its been decided behind closed doors and figures out who will make out and what real estate angle figures into it.

    What about the baylor no one has yet to shed light on that of course that was something that may be needed, thats like you may need water making ice tea.

    What about price increases what about trucking it out or by rail what was those options and what train siding were they planning on?

    I agree Mike should know all this stuff where most of the jackasses running the show was not able to provide the answers last couple of meetings amazing how we hold some people accountable yet the city is still lost from past decisions with the same people sitting on boards.

    If it had been an open deal from the beginning and there wasn’t lying going on in the beginning maybe the contract would be signed by now but this is Norwalk and in Norwalk getting the real deal or even the half truth seldom exists.

    yes we have to do someting with our rubbish soon but so doesn’t Stamford you think they will blame their council on not acting fast enough if they can’t bring the trash here to Norwalk? If it was such a good deal why was Norwalk the olny deal there is no plan B after all these years?

    Be serious six other cities and towns cannot figure out a solution for their trash without Hal and Fred at the healm?

    Who are you trying to convince it can’t be us who have seen this lax way Norwalk works behind smoking mirrors.Whats going to happen when other issues come to light you can only blame so much on council members before one looks in the mirror and sees someone else to blame.

    Has Lajoies ever been in compliance at their facility or any other property they coveniantly use on that 1/4 mile strip called Meadow st?

    Go to Google and see for yourself it shows what goes on every day there without any fear of getting their hand slapped what department oversees compliance?

    Yes no complaints makes no responses by Norwalk,anyone call the state to see if they have any complaints?

    Nice to see this unfolding so we can go on to other subjects it may be a long summer at city hall.Now that we have spent all of our money on developing and have no grants coming in how does one expect this contract for Haviland parking garage will turn out? What was that all about sign the contract and while the ink is wet the job starts.I Imagine any company with expertise is sitting around waiting for Norwalks contract.

    Did the Lowe st bridge group unionize?

    anything else to laugh about?

  • 14 Anonymous // Jun 23, 2008 at 4:20 pm

    Who was the chair of the committee prior to November 2007?

  • 15 #12 Re // Jun 23, 2008 at 5:37 pm

    I believe she is a private nurse.

  • 16 anonymous // Jun 23, 2008 at 8:32 pm

    The chair was Kevin Poruban.

  • 17 Anonymous // Jun 23, 2008 at 9:14 pm

    So why not ask Kevin what transpired in comittee that led to this fiasco. What information did they have then which the new council inherited. all input is essential to find out if this was a back door deal or not.

  • 18 Anonymous // Jun 23, 2008 at 9:16 pm

    why are we looking behind why not look ahead and vote no for ths contract find others who would bid from what was said it was a feild of one and if anything contact Stamford for their plab B maybe we may buy into their proposal.

  • 19 John Frank // Jun 23, 2008 at 10:12 pm

    TG:
    Just for the record, there is no permit for the Meadow St. transfer station now. Waste Management had one and it expired in 2005. City Carting has owned the property since Apr 2007 and does not have a permit. Wouldn’t you think Hal would know that ? If this goes through as proposed, the City will have to bring the site into compliance and go through the whole process for getting a new permit on a site already under investigation as contaminated.
    Source:
    CT DEP Waste Engineering & Enforcement Div,Bureau of Materials Management & Compliance Assurance.
    860-424-3304

  • 20 Homebody // Jun 23, 2008 at 11:08 pm

    #13 So what do you like about Norwalk?
    Are you involved and know all the smoke and mirror dirty dealings. What have you done about it?
    What is at Google? Please give us a hint, or are you withholding information!!!
    Norwalk Housing Authority. State & Federal no local jurisdiction. Ask the Authority members and your state rep ( Morris in that District) what have you done to correct the problem.
    PS
    None of the council breast are big enough.

  • 21 Anonymous // Jun 23, 2008 at 11:33 pm

    That was good #20 now make some sense so we can follow you.

    Wow no permit this is certainly going to get better maybe Hal is going to retire now that his plan seems to have a few flaws.

  • 22 Anonymous // Jun 24, 2008 at 12:10 am

    He won’t retire until he gets that 2nd or is it 3rd pension. Isn’t that the name of one of the games played behind closed doors in Norwalk? See how many pensions you can collect from the taxpayers?

  • 23 Anonymous // Jun 24, 2008 at 8:36 am

    John Frank: So you are telling us that Waste Management has been operating an illegal, unpermitted transfer station on Meadow Street since 2005? Where is DEP enforcement?!

  • 24 MGeake // Jun 24, 2008 at 8:54 am

    I spent nearly half an hour on the phone with Elaine Coelho of the DEP’s Waste Engineering & Enforcement Division. The transfer station is not “unpermitted”. A “timely application” for renewal was submitted in 2005, but the DEP has still not processed it. This is because DEP does not consider renewals a “high priority” item, and they just don’t have the staff to wade through their backlog. So as long as the transfer station is otherwise in compliance, it is allowed to continue operations while the application is pending.

  • 25 John Frank // Jun 24, 2008 at 8:58 am

    DEP says: (in part)
    “The permittee submitted a timely application for renewal of the permit on June 17, 2005 (application # 200501617). The Department has not finalized the renewal application but has made the decision to allow the current operation to continue until such time as the permit renewal request is completed. The permit renewal application does not include any increases in the daily tonnages or changes to the waste streams accepted.”

    Permitee was Waste Management, permit was not renewed, site was sold in April, 2007, new owner needs a permit. City Carting was listed with DEP as operating the facility as a contractor for Waste Management. Waste management owned, and City Carting operated, with an expired permit and DEP allowed that, while work was being done to renew Waste Management’s permit. Since the sale, continued operation may have been illegal.
    I have said before DEP has neither staff nor mindset for enforcement. They rely heavily on local support and voluntary compliance.

  • 26 John Frank // Jun 24, 2008 at 9:48 am

    Clarification:
    Current operation is not, according to DEP, illegal. The expired permit is still held by Waste Mgmt and is pending renewal. While it is pending, City Carting is operating, Meadow St Partners owns the real estate, and Waste Mgmt owns the permit. DEP has no problem with that and says it is not unusual. There was a meeting with DEP, City Carting, Waste Mgmt, and the City to explore transferring the permit to the City. Upgrading the permit to 1200 tons a day would be a process that could take some time. The permit they are talking about tranferring only allows 250 tons a day of garbage and we routinely exceed that now, at Crescent St.
    City Carting does not have any solid waste permits, anywhere in the State.

  • 27 Anonymous // Jun 24, 2008 at 10:06 am

    But it does mean having a permit for a baylor is something that never has been there, and the other six cities and towns are not going there every day.We have what 1 or two towns going to cresent street now.If we are losing any money by running the trash why isn’t the other cities and towns joining us to pay the loss as well?

  • 28 Anonymouse 28 // Jun 25, 2008 at 12:02 pm

    Good job John .
    Norwalk Generates 190 tons per day .
    Cresent St. is rated for 500/day
    Meadow st. will be 500/day Minimum
    thats a lot of out of town trucks coming in .
    Now go here, pay the 2.95 for item # 8 and learn more about City Carting.
    http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?s_site=thejournalnews&f_site=thejournalnews&f_sitename=Journal+News%2C+The+%28Westchester%2C+NY%29&p_theme=gannett&p_product=WJNB&p_action=search&p_field_base-0=&p_text_base-0=city+carting&p_perpage=10&p_maxdocs=20

  • 29 Anonymous // Jun 25, 2008 at 3:28 pm

    #28 you may be right but isn’t the deal for six other cities and towns to bring their trash here to Norwalk? What do you suppose Stamford generates for a day,its coming here if Hal has hs way,and the station on Meadow st will also accept private carriers and debris.

    1200 tons was a goal coming in,thats 1200 tons going out the same day you do the math I have and it seems a lot more than waht most people are saying.

    A dump trailer going out can only carry what 30 tons so at 1200 tons a day how many trucks will that be going out? Or do you need a more complex problem to figure out how Norwalk actually does their numbers.

    250 tons out of 500 is for construction debris only so how can you compare using 500 tons a day its only half that for resdiential waste the kind that 190 tons Norwalk does a day.Not much left over for six towns is it.If you divide the balance its what ?

  • 30 Anonymous // Jun 25, 2008 at 4:40 pm

    where was it written Meadow St. would be 500 tons minimum? It’s 500 tons maximum. I haven’t seen anything in the proposal about 6 other towns sending their garbage to Meadow St.

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