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Old Fashioned Philosophical Debate


by turfgrrl


May 26th, 2008 · 72 Comments

Ever since Kelo V. New London, the idea that private economic development constitutes a “public good” has been hotly contentious. While Kelo V. New London centered on eminent domain, the rest of the appendages of economic development are just as much an issue. Today’s Hour dissects the idea of municipal bonding for a private development.

With the economy hovering in or near recession, some find the prospect of the city issuing $104 million in municipal bonds for a private, retail-anchored development in West Avenue a poor choice.

“There’s no way I’m going to encumber the city’s bonding capacity by $104 million, when we need two new fire stations (and other infrastructure),” said Councilman Michael K. Geake. “I was against bonding $104 million the first time I heard it. And then you get into the current economy.”

Last Monday, Mayor Richard A. Moccia, the Norwalk Redevelopment Agency, and the city’s bond counselor made the case for floating $104 million in municipal bonds to help pay for parking garages and infrastructure work related to Waypointe — local developer Stanley M. Seligson’s planned mixture of new retail, housing and offices for the West Avenue neighborhood.

Seligson is looking to build up to 350 new residential units, 75,000 square feet of office space and 393,174 square feet of new retail space in the 19.8-acre area bounded by West Avenue, and Chapel and Academy streets, as outlined in the conceptual plan approved by the Common Council.

According to Moccia, the city must choose between stagnation or growth — in particular, growing the city’s commercial property tax base to shift the tax burden off homeowners.

Moccia indicated that a severe economic downturn would extend beyond Norwalk.

“If we’re in that type of situation in Norwalk, I have a feeling that then the whole country is going to be in it,” Moccia said. “But what choice do we have? We sit now with minimal taxes coming in from the downtown area. And to just let it stagnate further? It just can’t be done.”

A $104-million bond issuance, if approved by the council, would be paid back by parking revenues and a surtax applied to properties within a special services district, according to a draft master development agreement negotiated between Seligson, Robinson & Cole (the city’s bond counselor) and city officials.

According to Robinson & Cole and Thomas S. Hamilton, the city’s finance director, risk to the city has been reduced to a minimum in the agreement. Under one bonding scenario, parking and special services district revenues would generate $235.7 million over a 25-year period. Under another, they would net $184.6 million over a 20-year period. That translates to $4.9 million to $32.8 million more than would be needed to pay off the bonds, according to Hamilton. He has characterized the revenue projections as conservative.

Under the development agreement, the bonds would not be issued until Waypointe was constructed and at least 75-percent of non-residential space within it — retail and offices — was leased and occupied.

Susan Sweitzer, Redevelopment Agency senior project manager, acknowledges the current economic downtown but points to the 75-percent occupancy clause and other aspects of Waypointe, which she believes protect the city. Sweitzer added that occupancy is at least four years off.

“The recession is not gong to last four years — no recession has lasted four years,” Sweitzer said.

According to Sweitzer, the lease arrangements which Seligson plans to secure with tenants ensure occupancy. Seligson, as the property owner, must pay the property taxes and special services taxes, regardless of whether the space is occupied or vacant, Sweitzer said.

According to Sweitzer, parking revenues pose the “soft side” of the revenue stream.

Last Monday night, Tony Doumlele, a Norwalk resident and taxpayer, handed members of the Common Council’s Planning Committee a spreadsheet comparing the proposed bonding amount for Waypointe to that approved for Blue Back Square, a similar mixed-use development in West Hartford. Norwalk officials have used the development as a model for Waypointe.

According to Doumlele, per-capita debt associated with Waypointe would run $1,600 over the life of the bonds, as compared to $592 per-capita for West Hartford residents. Further, Doumlele believes Norwalk would get fewer “public” improvements from the municipal bonding than West Hartford has received. Municipal bonding for Blue Back Square is paying for a library expansion, the town hall and other improvements, he said.

Doumlele, to be sure, praises Hamilton’s and Robinson & Cole’s work negotiating the draft master development agreement for Waypointe. He simply believes that more research is needed on the revenues.

“No one can forecast the future with full accuracy, so I think these comparisons with actual (revenues) — what’s going on in the Norwalk garages and West Hartford — would be very informative. And that hasn’t happened yet,” Doumlele said. However “this backstopping that they talked about. I think that’s a good idea.”

According to Sweitzer, the city is working to insert language into the agreement that would extend the time period of the special services district, if parking revenues don’t suffice in repaying the bonds.

Douglas T. Adams, Seligson’s vice president of development, described the 75-percent occupancy clause as “one of the most important aspects” in the financing structure.

“The city doesn’t have to float the bonds until the developer has delivered. A large portion of the income to pay the bonds is from a tax which is paid regardless of the economy. There’s no relief for that,” Adams said. “It is additional risk for the developer. But that’s the business we’re in and a risk we’re willing to take.”

Moccia, while labeling Doumlele’s numbers as “a little bit disingenuous,” used them several weeks ago when speaking about Waypointe. In the worst-case scenario, where the project tanks and there’s no incoming revenue, taxpayers would foot the bill for about $80 per year, he said.

Speaking to The Hour recently, Moccia said he arrived at that figure by dividing Doumlele’s $1,600 figure by 20 years — the possible bond issuance. Moccia finds the prospect of a default unlikely and the cost acceptable.

“If you get the worst-case scenario, everything bad happens, it’s still only going to cost $80-a-head over 20 years for a new downtown area. It’s $80-a-year for 20 years,” Moccia said. “Everyone developer in this country right now is facing uncertainties. We all know that. But you cannot base your decisions solely on the point that they’re might be an (economic) downtown.”

So there you have it. Debate away. But if live debate is more your thing, you can attend the planning committee’s public comment meeting on the draft bonding agreement, June 4 at 6 p.m. in Room A300 of City Hall, 125 East Ave.

source: Who will pay $104 million in bonds for Waypointe?, By ROBERT KOCH, May 26, 2008

Tags: Norwalk

72 Responses so far “Old Fashioned Philosophical Debate”


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  • 1 Diane Cece - define "private" // May 26, 2008 at 1:52 pm

    What a joke - If Seligson can’t afford the project without borrowing on the backs of the citizens of Norwalk, then why on earth was he awarded “sole supplier” status for the redevelopment? This is private development, is it not? Doesn’t every single cent of profit from sales and rentals go directly to Seligson Properties? Let another developer bid on the project who can afford it.
    At the last Planning Committee meeting, Tom Hamilton spoke to all the “safety” mechanisms in place to prevent any costs to taxpayers. While not providing any “what if” or “risk probablility” analysis, he did say they used the “but for test”. In this case, it sounded to me like the “but for…” is this: “But for the city allowing Seligson to borrow $104 million at our discounted rate, the project may not proceed.”. REALLY? Guess f____ing what. DON’T PROCEED. I’m not willing to pay even $1 a year if this project tanks, let alone the $80 a year for 20 years that Moccia thinks is reasonable.How much property tax is he paying right now? This proposal needs A LOT more discussion and at least a public forum, vs. public hearing, to open up a real dialogue on whether the PEOPLE of Norwalk want to pony up the $104 million. Put this baby as a referendum on the November ballot, and let us vote.

  • 2 Anonymous // May 26, 2008 at 2:22 pm

    Any Councilperson willing to stick their neck out for public money for private development should definitely think about it seriously instead of rubber stamping this BS from the mayor and Redevelopment.

    We need to divorce Redevelopment and run it out of our city. How much is it costing us, the taxpayers? Too much! All of it is for private carpetbaggers like Selickson, and NONE of it is for us, the citizens. He would NEVER be able to do this project in his own town, let alone have the taxpayers on the Goldcoast pay for it! I’m with you Diane, I’m not willing to pay 2 cents to these azz moles!

    I like councilman Geake and the more I listen to what he has to say, the happier I am that the taxpayers have ONE person on the Council that doesn’t do what he is told by the shadow (RI family) government. We need to replace the other 12 members on that council, and get a new mayor too. This one is just as bad as the 2 before him! NO MORE PUBLIC MONEY FOR PRIVATE DEVELOPMENT!!!!

  • 3 old timer // May 26, 2008 at 8:12 pm

    In fairness, Stanley Seligson is no carpetbagger. He may live out of town now, but he is from Norwalk and the original business, before he got into real estate development,was the S & S Tobacco and Candy Company at 15 Commerce St, later moved to Main St. His Family lived on Pine Hill Rd and the business was started by his father, Emmanuel Seligson. He has run a number of businesses in Norwalk and owns considerable property that he developed with his own money. That doesn’t say anything about the wisdom of this particular plan, but he is no carpet-bagger, and not the kind of guy to get involved in risky projects. If he is in it, he believes he will make money and the City will benefit.

  • 4 Anonymous // May 26, 2008 at 9:02 pm

    In all fairness the past when Stanley did so much the country was not in the same state as it is now.Of course we will have others argue that but fuel that drives all aspects of construction including asphalt was probably a dollar a gallon when Stanley started so none of our issues are created by him.Your right lets be fair.

    Where are the plans and cost to build a new fire station in time for the new construction? Where are the plans on new equipment for the fire dept ?Where are the plans we need to use to to improve the sewage plant so we don’t keep paying fines? These same plans are needed to protect the shellfish beds along the coast that closed more than just Norwalk it effected three other surrounding towns where are those plans? Where are the plans to test the land on Platt st so we can build there to gain more taxes?Where are the plans and cost to control traffic around the new construction?Where are the plans to straighten out the cab stand at the train station?Where are the plans to fix the simple things in this city we are spending so much money on year after year without resolve?Where are the plans to make this city safer for all residents considering money is the answer of course?Who has the insight to tell us when the empty buildings in downtown Sono will be filled?We need a update on all plans that are going to cost us money and let us all decide what should wait and what waits will increase I think would be a good start.Norwalk taxpayers no longer need dept heads and appointed leadership making these decsions based on one unattended meeting saying there is no interest to figure this out.

    Seems we are now hearing about meetings at the last minute or The Hour and the Advocate not letting us know at all because no one notified them.Its also felt decisions are being made before the committees and groups are formed as thou it is formality for those who think there city is in great hands.Residents who know better are starting to speak out some for the first time after years of rubber stamping things because there was no need to worry about taxes or spending habits.

    Most of us hate to hear worst case, we have that now don’t we? Can it get worse maybe not for the rest of the country but for us yes it is a possiblity isn’t it?

    We have projects on the table that will need more money goes without saying its the cost of running a city but better to know about them know than having depts using creative bookkeeping until after the next election.I’m sure the city has had a lot of nice guys in the past but none have ever paid my taxes so until the bill stops coming to my house no more open checkbook roulette it doesn’t work anymore.

    Granted while some of us can’t afford to eat in Sono we still have to feed our families,it isn’t right to deny anyone that luxury but as far as build more downtown draws let developers do it with their money not mine.

  • 5 Anonymous // May 27, 2008 at 9:33 am

    The bonds are to pay for streets and other infrastructure that the city should provide and will have to pay for eventually anyway. Waypointe’s offer to take the risk up front, pay for and implement all of the improvements up front and not ask the city to pay back the improvements until the development is 75% occupied is virtually handing it to the city on a silver platter. The city would be stupid to walk away from this plan (of course, this shoe may fit). Those of you that are anti-development, anti-everything will of course continue to fight it and continue to drag Norwalk down. Without these projects and SONO, we are going to turn into Bridgeport. And you think taxes and crime are high now.

  • 6 MGeake // May 27, 2008 at 9:35 am

    The bonds are needed to pay for parking lots whose only function is to serve private businesses in a privately owned development.

  • 7 call me stupid // May 27, 2008 at 10:11 am

    How did the taxes and the crime get so high #5 ?

    At least we are making progress admitting crime is high is a start.

  • 8 just don't call me late for supper // May 27, 2008 at 10:14 am

    It still matters what is served on that silver platter.

  • 9 Anonymous // May 27, 2008 at 11:22 am

    #7 it is against TG’s rules to “call you stupid”, but if the shoe fits… Taxes and crime got high because Norwalk didn’t invest or attempt to attract and build a tax base beyond residential properties. Norwalk has a disproportionally small tax revenue base of commerical properties versus residential. If you want your taxes to keep getting higher and crime to get worse, go ahead, keep fighting against redevelopment.

  • 10 Anonymous // May 27, 2008 at 11:24 am

    MGeake - so, you are saying that the bonds don’t pay for the roads, sidewalks, sewers, etc. that are part of the development? The bonds are just for the Parking Garages? That is not my understanding.

  • 11 old timer // May 27, 2008 at 11:33 am

    MGeake: By that logic, the City has no obligation to build or maintain roads in business districts because they serve privately owned business ? Are you saying that a builder should not only put up the building but supply all infrastructure ? Why, by that reasoning, should he pay taxes on that building ? what does he get from the City for his taxes ? The theory is that both the builder and the City benefit by well designed new construction replacing older, less productive buildings. Shouldn’t both invest, if both get benefit ?
    Traditionaly the Community supplies most of the infrastructure, including roads, sewers, storm drains, parking, and, schools, police and fire protection. Private investors supply the buildings, and, in most cases, some part of the infrastructure. It is a partnership and nobody gets a free ride. In some places, deals are made to forgo local taxes on new buildings for years to encourage builders.(Tax incentives) The trick is negotiating a fair deal for the City where the long term benefit outweighs the short term cost. Part of why you and others were elected is to make judgements on the cost benefit analysis of this project. Ask lots of questions and don’t vote yes until you are satisfied the City is getting a benefit.

  • 12 Reality Check // May 27, 2008 at 11:53 am

    Wow! #11 Remember how long we supported the bonds for the Maritime Center? In fact I think we are still paying on that debt. People don’t live in the long term they live in the short term. In the long term the ice age will return and the Universe will come to an end. You give us an iron clad guarantee that the taxpayer does not get stuck for a dime and then you might get a vote. MGeake, when you strike a nerve you notice how the Pro Development crowd comes out of the woodwork.

    The old Lower taxes on the homeowner argument is starting to make every home owner puke.

  • 13 Anonymous // May 27, 2008 at 12:32 pm

    Hey 12 - careful not to choke on it. Yes, I’m pro development. It is nice to hear something besides the self-serving negativsm of the naysaying “don’t build anymore condos” group.

  • 14 MGeake // May 27, 2008 at 12:32 pm

    #11 My job is to protect the city’s taxpayers, not private developers. You can bet I will be using what I learned getting my MBA to do a cost/benefit analysis, and what I learned in law school to review the 125-page Master Development agreement (when I get more than just a table of contents) to assure that the city — as a whole — is going to benefit and isn’t going to get stuck paying that $104M out of general revenues. Unless and until I am comfortable, my vote is “no”.

    Right now, I see too much risk and not enough benefit.

  • 15 Anonymous // May 27, 2008 at 2:02 pm

    MGeake - you didn’t answer #10s question. The bonds are not just for the parking lots, they are for redeveloping the streets, including West Avenue, sidewalks and sewers.

    By all means, study and question the proposal, that is your job as a council member. I just hope that you put Norwalk’s interests above petty dem’s politics to “get at the mayor by holding up redevelopment”.

  • 16 MGeake // May 27, 2008 at 2:22 pm

    Yes, there are other things besides the parking garages, but you have to admit the garages are the “big ticket item”. I’d be a lot more comfortable with those if there were a mass-transit component that would guarantee a level of usage beyond shoppers, say a train station where the Danbury line comes real close to Harbor Avenue.

    And when have I ever voted partisan instead of my conscience???

  • 17 Democrat // May 27, 2008 at 2:39 pm

    This is an enormous decision and I agree, let’s not forget what happended with the Maritime Center. The city agreed to float $39M in bonds, with the agreement that the future receipts from the Center would pay off the debt. After a number of years, the city paid off the bonds and interest, and the Center never paid a penny. We the tax payers paid the bill. Granted, this was not a private development, but a lesson should have been learned.

  • 18 BLOODLESS TAXPAYER // May 27, 2008 at 3:49 pm

    # 17 stated ” but a lesson should have been learned.”

    COME ON. This is Norwalk, the city with the taxpayers with the bottomless pockets. Politicians will never learn until there is protests in the street, and a some tar and feathers.

  • 19 anonymous // May 27, 2008 at 4:01 pm

    If the sidewalk in front of my house needs to be replaced, who pays for it? If it is me, how many years will the city front the money?

  • 20 Anonymous // May 27, 2008 at 5:41 pm

    #17-Now, who was responsible for that? I believe it was your own Mayor Knopp who allowed that to happen as well as the Seaport Assoc. and I think one more if I recall. Thats what the taxpayers should be protesting. Why is it that the taxpayers have to foot the bills and then get run out of town when they can no longer afford the taxes? Pretty P!$$ poor strategy if you ask me. As far as the sidewalks in front of your house? The homeowner is responsible for the upkeep. There ya go again, taxing and costing the homeowner more than they can afford so they leave town. I should think that the Maritime and the Seaport Assoc. should still be liable for their back debts and the city should go after them with interest unless of course a deal was made and they don’t have to pay it back.

  • 21 old timer // May 27, 2008 at 6:03 pm

    The Maritime Center was operated at a loss for a number of years and we paid off the bonds. In return for that investment, thousands of visitors come to South Norwalk and spend money in a lot of local businesses. I am not qualified to figure the cost benefit analysis for the Center, but I know honorable people who were directly involved and are convinced the benefit far outweighed the expense.
    Councilman MGeake sounds well qualified to analyse the present proposal and I believe he will come to a decision that he believes is in the best interest of the City. I suspect that he may be better qualified than most who will have a voice in this decision. It sounds to me as if the City and its bond advisors have negotiated a deal that should pay its own way. The City is not committed to anything until the developer has built, and leased, a large part of the project.
    It will be a shame if anybody takes sides in this based on political considerations. They were elected to protect our interests.

  • 22 Anonymous // May 27, 2008 at 6:41 pm

    #19 come to quintard ave, they repaved the street its awesome but left the sidewalks so next winter they will certainly undermine the new paved street and it will look in no time what it did before.Its a shame everyone is boasting about the job that was done and truth is unless the job is finished nothing was accomplished.I imagine if we could find a civil engineer to verify the fact work still needs to be done to protect the ivestment of paving he would point out not only cracked sidewalks but cement sidewalks was a poor choice the first time around.

    What happens if the parking garages are not used?
    The problem they are having in West hartford is the workers are using residential areas to park and avoid costly parking fees just to work there.The news is reporting the cost of parking in all cities is expected to rise and mass transit is going to be a possible answer to city parking I’d hate to see such a investment and turn out to be mistake.What is preventing others to open up parking lots themselves and charge for parking other than the city?

  • 23 Taxed Beyond..... // May 27, 2008 at 6:42 pm

    Please don’t be so quick to “Anoint” his Geakeness. Remember he is the one who was convinced Dean would make a good president.

    His real agenda has yet to be revealed………

  • 24 Anonymous // May 27, 2008 at 7:03 pm

    Wow, the usual knuckle draggers blaming Knopp for the Maritime Center, how about that? I thought the MC came to Norwalk WAY before Knopp was mayor.

  • 25 old timer // May 27, 2008 at 7:38 pm

    Nobody is “annointing” anybody. A politician is a politician. Time will tell. Notice I said “sounds like”. If I was convinced, I would have said “is”. If he is as qualified and as non-biased as he would have us believe, that makes him a rare bird, indeed. We will see how thorough his analysis is, and where it takes him. I don’t see him following any herd, but I have misjudged others.

  • 26 Anonymous // May 27, 2008 at 8:12 pm

    hey 24- do some research and see who was in office when the loan was forgiven

  • 27 kc // May 27, 2008 at 9:27 pm

    I am fairly certain sidewalks are the responsibility of the homeowner, not the city. This changed happened a few years ago. However, the city can fine you if they are not properly maintained.

  • 28 Anonymous // May 27, 2008 at 10:03 pm

    Thats interesting #27 how can that be? I never heard of that before but then again I never had a reason to ask.I know you have to remove the snow but replace the sidewalk itself?

  • 29 MGeake // May 27, 2008 at 10:27 pm

    #28 ’tis true.

    Code of the City of Norwalk. ยง95-9. Sidewalk repair.

  • 30 Anonymous // May 28, 2008 at 6:42 am

    Mr. Geake could you please explain why you did not support the charter revision ? You talk about transparency yet actions speak louder than words and you are being a hypocrite ?

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