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Open Thread


by turfgrrl


April 30th, 2007 · 28 Comments

The ethics investigation into Anne Carbone grinds on, and Gordon Tully fires off several emails complaining about the revised ethics code and the executive session that the Carbone investigation is conducting. What’s with his fixation on Carbone?

First there’s this one from 4/24/07:

The previous thread was getting very long, and beginning to move in the direction of a blog. Since I chose my own list of recipients, it really can’t function as a blog. Having sampled the ” yourct.org”, I was disappointed in how quickly things become personal there, plus it is heavily partisan. So I am simply starting up another thread to the same recipients. Please weigh in if you wish to come off the list.

Well Tully is not being honest here. I invited Tully to post his comments about the ethics code revisions. And Tully, it’s yourct.com, not dot org. And what happened. Well, let’s look at the number of comments to this post. 4. One of those 4 was Gordon Tully, whose comment was the third one. It appears Tully never bothered to read my post, because had he, he would have noticed that I called for the ethics panel to be people outside of Norwalk. Clearly, that somehow is a personal and heavily partisan position. But Tully goes on in his email:

My basic point remains: no matter who drafts the code and reviews it, there will always be the taint that they “rigged” it somehow. The only defense against such perception (and again, perception is just as important at content in this legislation), is to make the process as open as possible.

The problem, which I don’t think anyone has solved, is how to make is really open and at the same time keep it efficient. Let’s all think hard about the options. One that comes to mind is to create a wiki to draft the legislation (I know next to nothing about running a wiki, so maybe someone could weigh in on that subject). This is the 21st Century, after all, and maybe for sensitive legislation like this there needs to be a new approach.

Apparently Tully, who never bothered to attend any of the public hearings on the ethics code wants it to be more public? Talk about being an hour late and a dollar short. Well when I first read his email criticism, I dismissed it, he didn’t bother to read anything and was apparently miffed that only one person commented on his comment. That comment merely pointed out that he was on the ZBA and questioned whether a sitting commissioner should be involved in crafting an ethics code that would over see themselves. Not a bad question, I think. But it was one comment. And Tully’s reaction was to pick up his marbles and go back to a private, non public email list to air his concerns. Kinda strange, no? Then he came back later with another email on 4/29/07:

As I understand it, the hearing on Tuesday about an alleged ethics violation by Anne Carbone must be confidential according to the state statutes listed in the agenda. The agenda for the meeting, plus the relevant statutes (with relevant language in boldface), are included in the attached document.

As everyone knows, the alleged ethics violation was the subject of headlines in The Hour when it first was filed. It appears, reading Section 1-82a, that anyone and everyone involved in making or receiving the initial complaint were obligated to maintain confidentiality unless released from this responsibility by Ms. Carbone or her representative.

I would ask Mr. Coffey and Mr. Nolin how they can justify closing to the public a hearing about the alleged violation, when in the first instance they or others involved in receiving the complaint appear to have violated the very statute being used to justify an executive session.

Is not this initial act violating confidentiality in itself a cause for an ethics complaint under state law? If so, to whom does one complain?

In any case, is not the fact that confidentiality has been violated sufficient, perhaps even necessary, cause to open the hearing to the public?

I believe the readers I have copied in this email deserve an answer to my questions, as they are highly relevant to the issue of establishing an independent ethics commission.

Ah well, it is becoming clear that Gordon Tully is really concerned about Carbone’s ethics violation. And of course Tully continues to play loose with the facts, because it was the Diez family that made public the complaint, and Carbone herslef who responded in the newspapers. Patrick Linsey of The Hour offers a nice recap:

In January, Norwalk zoning official Anne Carbone was accused by her former real estate clients of prosecuting a zoning complaint against them after they found a new real estate agent.

Carlos and Diane Diez accused Carbone, chairwoman of the Zoning Board of Appeals, of submitting a zoning complaint against them that alleged a room in the couple’s basement containing a refrigerator and sink as well as a washer and dryer constituted a second kitchen.

Carbone has admitted making the complaint and the Diezes said they received a notice requesting inspection of their home several days after they hired a new real estate agent.

Carbone’s employment with Coldwell Banker Residential Brokerage ceased the day The Hour first reported the Diezes’ allegations.

After the first zoning inspector found no violation, a second inspection was requested. The Diezes’ attorney Sarah Marshall has told The Hour city Planning and Zoning Director Michael Greene acknowledged Carbone submitted materials to prompt a second inspection. Greene has declined comment, citing the ethics investigation.

Carbone’s attorney has denied his client requested a second inspection.

It seems fairly straight forward that if you are a real estate agent, and sit on the Zoning Board of Appeals, that you shouldn’t go around filing zoning complaints against former clients. Coldwell Banker figured this out in less than a day. But straight forward thinking is not what Gordon Tully wants. He prefers to have a discussion with people who won’t publicly disagree with him. Why he thinks Carbone is worth the effort is odd, but to each his own.

Tags: In the News

28 Responses so far “Open Thread”



  • 1 Anonymous // Apr 30, 2007 at 8:33 am

    It seems that not having an updated ethics code is part of the problem. So I would like to see the code updated. If Mr. Tully is so concerned, why didn’t he attend any of the public hearings on it? Something smells fishy here.

  • 2 AnonymousToo // Apr 30, 2007 at 10:05 am

    It was dissappointing to see Laurel Lindstrom swallowing whole the Tully half-baked argument. She normally is more careful with her research. Back to the drawing board Laurel. Check in with Common Cause, a legitimate expert on the subject.

    Mr. Tully has a bone to pick and it is personal. You will need to be more careful about diving into issues if you want people to take you seriously as a candidate. Tully is avenging for a friend of his. He presents inconsistent, poorly thought through arguments. To say that elected officials should not serve on the committee is legitimate. It is just as legitimate to say that the members should not be from Norwalk. This needs to be worked out.

    Reform of the Ethics Code is a good thing and the Ordinance Committee deserves credit for venturing where previous councils and mayors have feared to tread. Give credit where it is due. We can benefit from these first reforms and deal with the next step in the future. It is not a perfect world but these reforms can make a positive difference now. If you think there is going to be perfection serving in government, then you are running for the wrong job.

    Being a legislator requires reasoning and compromise. Finally we have some council members who can get things done by these methods. We can’t afford to go back to the dictatorship method. You should know this.

  • 3 high road // Apr 30, 2007 at 10:26 am

    It’s amazing how rational idealogues (like Coffey) can sound. Talk about personal agenda — his is focused on avenging Knopp’s overrides on his (perceived)power. Many people see through Coffey’s tricks to the heart of the matter: power and control mixed wtih a bit of personal paranoia.

    I suspect that 80% of the comments on this blog come from 5 or 6 like-minded insiders posting under different names — and a few of us “regular” folks who get beat up for bucking the vigilante brainwarp.

    Bottom line: Coffey is not the man you want drafting an ethics code. It’s like putting Dracula in charge of the blood bank.

    And Gordon Tully, is one of the most balanced, intelligent, and ethical men in Norwalk. That’s why Coffey wants to discredit him. An honest man is a threat to power-mongers.

  • 4 turfgrrl // Apr 30, 2007 at 11:05 am

    high road: I’m sure most politicians have personal agendas, just like we all do when it comes to careers. But when the personal agenda takes greater importance over the people’s agenda, then they all get into trouble, now don’t they.

    So if you really want to take the high road, ask yourself is what Carbone did fulfilling a personal agenda or the people’s agenda? I think the answer is obvious.

    Is reforming the 40 year old ethics code fulfilling a personal or people’s agenda? I think there too, the answer is obvious. Why else tighten the code unless you care more about making it better?

    And you are wrong about the 80% comment. There’s a great diversity of comments here, and from the phone calls I get from people identifying themselves to me, I can assure you that like-minded is hardly the term I’d use to group them. What happens though, is that on individual subjects you will get either basic agreement or hotly debated disagreement. I don’t think we’ve had a good post that generated lots of differing debate, which is an odd thing, but then there are many people here who have never participated on a blog before, so its organic process.

    While it may seem unrelated, there’s talk about how polling on Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign is showing a higher percentage of people supporting her when the poll is conducted by a live person versus a recorded message. I think we are seeing a related effect here, in person people may say they believe one thing, but anonymously they may believe quite another. I find it interesting to say the least.

    I don’t think Tully is quite what you make him out to seem. I’ve read many of his emails, and am leaning towards a different conclusion. That’s why I posted a few of them. If he was so concerned about public participation in the ethics code process, then he would have made the effort to participate in the public hearings and here. But he prefers the backroom of his handpicked email list. Is that consistent with a balanced, intelligent and ethical approach? You tell me.

  • 5 Open and Ethical government Wanted // Apr 30, 2007 at 2:19 pm

    What hearings were there? I don’t recall seeing any meetings posted on ethics.

  • 6 Hesitant // Apr 30, 2007 at 2:22 pm

    While certain aspects of the Carbone case appear somewhat suspect, this situation highlights several important issues that we should be talking about and working to solve.

    Illegal apartments are rampant in certain parts of the city. Many realtors misrepresent these multifamily properties as able to house more families than legal - blatantly disregarding Norwalk’s zoning laws.

    Zoning staff attempt to keep up with all of this, and try to remedy the situation, only to have property owners seek legal action (to protect their illegal dwellings).

    While I’ve been following this blog for several weeks, I’ve been hesitant to post because the discussion typically goes rapidly downhill into character attacks. I’d rather that we have an intelligent discussion rather than personality bashing.

    I personally believe that Mr. Tully presents some good points that are worth debating. I think it makes very good sense to have an Ethics Commission that is independent of our elected officials. Forming it with community leaders or even ‘outsiders’ are some approaches that might work.

    It is good that we are talking so much about Ethics. We should continue to do so to ensure that what we get an ethics code that is fair and reflects the way we’d want to be judged if the time ever came.

    As for the public hearings for creation of an Ethics Commission, I think it’s human nature to not get involved in something until you feel a compelling reason to do so or it affects you personally. (e.g. people don’t come to zoning hearings until the applicant wants to do something ‘in their backyard’).

    People are busy and there are already so many meetings that you could make a full-time career out of attending meetings (I think Turfgrrl might be onto something!!)

    As Turfgrrl says, it would be great to have some interesting debate on some of these topics. It would be even greater if we then put our heads together and worked toward some solutions rather than just complain about things.

    Thanks for your time.

  • 7 anonymous // Apr 30, 2007 at 2:35 pm

    It is very interesting how Gourd Tully now wants different eithics rules because it affects his friend annie carbone. A true limousine liberal. How refreshing.

    Why would annie carbone turn in her clients anyway. it seems to be a breach of her job as a realtor and maybe her realty license will be revoked for breaching her position as an agent of an owner.

  • 8 high road // Apr 30, 2007 at 2:58 pm

    limosine liberal? Hardly. More like beat Subaru with “save open space” sticker. Sling mud where you like but Gordon Tully’s ethical values are impeccable– even when I vehemnetly disagree with him. In the case of how we go about revising the code of ehtics and forming a commitee, he has hit the nail on the head.

    And, to “hesitant” I add this bit from a Phyliss McGinley poem…

    When blithe to argument I come, / Though armed with facts, and merry, / May Providence protect me from / The fool as adversary, / Whose mind to him a kingdom is / Where reason lacks dominion, / Who calls conviction prejudice / And prejudice opinion.

  • 9 Madashell // Apr 30, 2007 at 3:04 pm

    Well said, high road. Here’s another quote that I have to keep in mind when I feel like contributing to this blog: “I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.” - George Bernard Shaw

  • 10 ethics reform is a good thing // Apr 30, 2007 at 3:09 pm

    its interesting how gourd tully did not take an interest in ethics until his leader on the zba was involved in an allleged ethics violation.

    it appears he does not want to aid the ethics reform process, he and his cronies want to derail it.

    the public sees through this extremist charade.

  • 11 high road // Apr 30, 2007 at 3:34 pm

    Jeepers creepers…if a lot of these don’t sound just like Mike Coffey posting under various pseudonyms. Style..diction…indignation. Those that aren’t David Watts, I mean, fanning the flames over on the seafood thread.

  • 12 anonymous // Apr 30, 2007 at 3:41 pm

    David watts will be the next democratic leader in this city.

    David is a true leader.

  • 13 Madashell // Apr 30, 2007 at 3:56 pm

    Jeez. I post something that’s reasonably literate and get accused of lurking in the guise of a two-faced Lieberman Republicrat. Thanks a lot.

  • 14 Anonymous // Apr 30, 2007 at 3:58 pm

    Seriously, other than who sits on the ethics panel, what is the debate about? I’m with TG on this, make it a panel of people from out of town. There’s way too much personal fights coloring what should be a fairly cut and dry issue.

  • 15 Anonymous // Apr 30, 2007 at 4:15 pm

    If Coffey is a republicrat what does that make Knopp? Let’s be real, on most progressive issues Coffey is 100%, while the rest of the so called liberals in this town fight against progressive issues.

  • 16 Jen // Apr 30, 2007 at 4:15 pm

    Dave Watts did not provide any smoking gun documents (Paganos). These documents came from City Hall. Nice try Repubs.

    1. Why would he do that in an election year?
    2. Galen and Dave are working to repair relationship.
    3. Dave does not post under a fake name.

  • 17 dem4life // Apr 30, 2007 at 4:19 pm

    Agreed. Fixing our ethics code is part of what good progressives do. Fighting against it is more free form Republicanism. It should be in all of our interests to make it better. Calling eachother names isn’t very productive.

  • 18 anonymous // Apr 30, 2007 at 4:25 pm

    Promising David Ken’s state central seat is not going to repair that relationship. Galen is desperate and doesn’t know what to do.

  • 19 Jen // Apr 30, 2007 at 5:21 pm

    NO. 18 Now that is funny- Dave is too young for state central.

  • 20 turfgrrl // Apr 30, 2007 at 6:15 pm

    Hesitant: Well said. Absolutely the debate about the issues is what we should all be working towards. And I think that kind of debate should be happening here :)

    Being a fan for regionalism, I don’t see why we’d want 169 little fiefdoms of ethics codes in the state. I’d like to see the state provide some infrastructure for the municipalities to create impartial panels as the need arises.

    But given the state of where we are, and how well received the ethics reformer in Hartford is right now, I don’t see that happening.

    I’m also a fan of the “stick it in writing” form of codifying rules, regulations and conduct. I don’t think our present code says much, ergo, make it say more. And keep on refining it.

    I’m not sure why people are so opposed to that idea, but I’m sure eventually someone from that camp will chime in.

  • 21 turfgrrl // Apr 30, 2007 at 6:26 pm

    high road: I note that you didn’t answer my query. But I’ll restate it for you. If someone is truly interested in public debate/particpation why do they choose to conduct said debate in private “hand selected recipient” emails?
  • 22 high road // Apr 30, 2007 at 6:56 pm

    Hmmm..TG seems to think that there is opposition to the “what” of ethics reform. I think all these comments (R,D, and in-betwee) support the need for codified, fair, and equitable ethics standards for city officials, staff,and commissions. And Gordon Tully is clearly in support of that as well. I think the sticking point is the “how” — and the perception by some that the ethics committee is writing the “code” without enough “public sunshine”. A hearing months back when it was a rough draft is not enough. Who has seen the final draft? The second issue is “who”. The ethics committee seems to be proposing council represenatives as the ethics panel. Elected officials are, de facto, connected ot the political process. You proably don’t want that in an ethics panel. And, of course, there is always the “who will watch the watchers.”

    I think there is no “oppossition”; I think there are people who are interesed in ensuring that 1) the code is unbiased, fair, and publicly vetted, and 2) the ethics panel consists of people who are (as much as possible) without allegances or alliances to party or power bases. So the “what” is endorsed by all; the “how” and the “who” seems to be where we split.

    And I don’t know why GT opts for a private list instead of the public blog. The “disinhibition effect” was, however, in full bloom re GT’s post…email (since people can’t use the screen of anonymity) at least forces you to be accountable for what you say. So maybe he diodn’t want this to be personal attacks on him but instead focus on the ideas. Maybe he wants to get opnions from specifc people instead of anonymous rants from posters like me. Just a guess.

  • 23 turfgrrl // Apr 30, 2007 at 7:18 pm

    High Road: I’m making that assumption from the comments here and of course Tully’s emails. From what I know, there were 2 public hearings on the ethics code. A draft version of the revised code was sent to all common council members and department heads, and anyone who asked to see it, notably mostly Ds and not Rs. I don’t know where the final draft is, and assume that it will be presented at the next meeting.

    But I disagree to some extent about how much the public gets to be involved in crafting legislation. We have legislators for a reason, not another form of participatory government. There’s a process that exists for that participation called the phone your legislator and attend the public hearing. Just because someone missed both public hearings doesn’t mean that they weren’t held, and that the whole process has to be stopped because one guy doesn’t like it. Now, maybe there’s more than Tully, but in looking at the list of people he emails, I’d guess that 90% of them had the draft to comment on and knew about the hearings.

    I really don’t have a problem with Tully wanting to solicit opinions from people privately, but I also think its fair to say that doing so is not soliciting opinions from the public. I maybe didn’t make my point about that as clear as I should of. You can’t have it both ways.

  • 24 high road // Apr 30, 2007 at 7:36 pm

    I see your point. There still appears to be a “close to the vest” mindset on the current ethics committee that is not all that healthy. Clearly, you can’t have everybody drafting legislaton. But there are people who commented extensively on the initial draft and had serious concerns about key points. Were those concerns addressed? From what I can glean, the committee (specifically Coffey) seems not all that keen on listening to ideas other than his own. I guess we’ll see when the next draft is released.

  • 25 turfgrrl // Apr 30, 2007 at 7:53 pm

    High road: Yes well listening is something that this city as a whole needs to do more of, on many counts. One of the reasons I blog about these things is to get the information out there. I know that people are reading, so perhaps listening is part of that. I’d like to see more discussion and ways we can all make Norwalk a better place.
  • 26 high road // Apr 30, 2007 at 8:40 pm

    Of course, all discussion and intelligent discourse makes for a dull blog. Might as well read the Advocate(yawn). So, c’mon ravers! You make the blogging world go ’round…

  • 27 Hesitant // Apr 30, 2007 at 10:07 pm

    I was happy to see that my comments were not slammed… phew! I’ll be brave and try again.

    So how do we get from all of this good discussion and intelligent discourse to a place of ‘making positive changes’?

    Maybe we could have some sort of public forum about drafting an ethics code where we bring in some experts. It might be a good idea to look to others who have done it well so that we don’t have to spend too much time recreating the wheel.

    With a thought-provoking discussion, maybe those that seem set in their ways might get some new ideas that change their mind. As turfgrrl said, it’s important to listen.

    Speaking of listening, elected officials are chosen to represent the public. Now that more people in the city are talking about ethics, it would be a great time to have a city-wide discussion about it. Really listen to what the residents have to say.

    Regarding TG’s point about state guidelines - as much as all of the CT cities and towns like their ‘independence’, I think that things might run more efficiently if we had a little more guidance from the state on a variety of issues.

    Bedtime for me. Good night everyone and happy blogging!

  • 28 AnonymousToo // May 1, 2007 at 11:07 am

    Am I the only person willing to look at the Common Cause survey of every town in CT? Am I the only one willing to point out GT’s rediculous assertions that Norwalk is the only town that is out of sync? Has anyone looked at the recommendations of Common Cause? Why didn’t this mayor, or the previous mayor take a hard look at the Norwalk Code of Ethics and see it’s obvious flaws and how outdated it is?
    Bravo to the current Ethics Committee. They are at least stepping up to make it better. Perfect is in the future perhaps, but let’s get the ball rolling and stop bickering.