February 17, 2010 12:09 pm

Snowfall Brings Up Sore Issue At City Hall

Yesterday’s snowfall didn’t create a snow day for Norwalk’s school children, but it did bring up a sore point for many who have questioned the Norwalk Public School policy of having third floor administrators get snow days. Yesterday, according to Mayor Moccia, only new interim superintendent Michael Nast was in the building.

There’s been a long time simmering discontent amongst some in Norwalk that the third floor workers shouldn’t get snow days just because the schools are closed. The argument is based on the the policy that a snow day is a pad day off that doesn’t count as a vacation, personal or sick day. Complicating matters, is some Norwalk school officials citing contracts that were negotiated specifically to handle the snow event equitably across all employees of the school district.

With the current budget pressures, you can be sure this issue won’t go away.

CT Taxpayer

This is a left-over from Sal Corda, who began allowing it early in his tenure. I know the board bristled at his directive to allow the administrative staff and secretaries to take off snow days, but they didn’t make him countermand it. As the articles suggests, it is giving the unions a benefit that isn’t part of their contract. Also, however, how does anyone explain how the rest of City Hall (who are all paid far less than the administrators) can get to work on such days?

Administrators and year-round secretaries are not supposed to get snow days off unless Norwalk City Hall is closed, and this applies to administrators in the school buildings as well. The only contractual “out” is to take a vacation or personal day, which no one does.
Where is the broom?

Welcome to Norwalk Mr. Nast.
I suppose that, that is exactly what needs to be done, clear out the desks, empty the place.
A complete clean sweep.
Mr. Nast might get more accomplished by himself than on a regular work, er, payday with all the job descriptions he must dicpher just to get a letter out.
The place is infected with ego’s, greed and incompetence. To the board memebers paying attention, take note. We need layoffs, we know where to look, dont we?
http://www.parentsforcolarossi.com Steve Colarossi

This issue had been raised by me with the former interim superintendent (oddly, it was one of the examples I gave him when were discussing if, perhaps, there was room to improve efficiency in our school department).
I will add this matter to our next Finance Committee’s agendas because I would like to investigate what the costs are (particularly where there has been administrative reluctance to elminate overtime).
However, with all issues that need to considered as a community during these fiscal tough times, I think we need to be careful not to paint all staff members with a broad brush and to address the issue as one of improving efficiencies, minimizing costs and improving education.
Permit me to ask why

if the parents are required to be at work when it is snowing, why should their children be allowed to stay home? Personally I think “snow days” are a bunch of hooey. If people can get to work in the storm and are required to be there (as 99% of us are, and we somehow all seem to manage it) then by all means kids should be in school. And please spare me the whole “the teachers have to get to school from out of town” whining, because if the teachers had other jobs instead of teaching, they’d still be required to show up in a snowstorm and they’d find a way to get there.

Common Sense

It’s simple. Take school vacation weeks for example. Did you ever notice how much less traffic there is on the roadways? When there’s less traffic there’s less accidents. One day of work or school isn’t worth the headaches caused by trying to jam what seems like half the world onto I95 and connecticut ave. in the midst of a snowstorm. Not to mention risking anyones life. The policy is strange for central office but most employers will be flexible in a bad storm. I usually work from home when it snows for the same reason. We cling to the old manufacturing mentality that more hours = more productivity. It still holds true for some jobs but honestly if it wasn’t for that mentality I would work from home everyday. There’s just nothing I can do in the office that I can’t do at home now that we have such robust telecommuting solutions.

Apathetic Voter

It would seem that you’re definitely in the minority here. Either that or extremely lucky.

It’s been my experience during my lifetime that you go to work in a snowstorm, you don’t “get” to stay home. Heck, I can think of only 1 storm that I’ve ever stayed home because of, and that was the blizzard of March 1995 (I think it was 95; my kid was still a toddler then). The only reason I stayed home that day was because I parked on the street and the city plows had my car covered up to the roof, and it took me from 7am to 2pm to shovel my car out well enough to drive it out of the parking space. At that point I figured, why bother going in? So I didn’t, and neither did about 65% of my coworkers. When we did arrive at work the very next day, we were told we would be docked with a day’s pay. And everyone who DID show up the day before got a day’s bonus pay.

Common Sense

Well I wouldn’t consider myself lucky and if I’m in the minority I doubt I’ll be here for long. I can understand your argument since the technology allowing me to work from home was still in its infancy in 1995 but the sub $1,000 PC and high speed Internet are readily available now. Failure to leverage this technology both for the employer and employee is a different matter all together. I don’t know what the “3rd floor” does on a daily basis but I’m sure it involves a computer and a telephone all of which are available in most homes. So are we arguing about the efficiency of tax dollars or are we bitter that we had to go to work in snow storms? If we’re arguing about efficiency then I rather have you stay home given the current state of technology. It’s less cars on an already crowded road which means less accidents, less strain on local law enforcement, and above all it decreases the chances of you or a loved one dying in that automobile accident by 100%. Further, you don’t have to make accommodations for your kids, you’re not pissed off because you had to dig your car out, and hey you’re still getting work done. If you have a job that doesn’t directly involve the use of a computer once again you have less traffic to deal with during your commute, decreasing the time spent driving and also the risk. Is the “stay home on snow day” practice stupid? I think so. Would a reversal of this practice improve the efficiency of tax dollars? Probably not when measured against the alternatives.

Apathetic Voter

I hear what you’re saying. And boy do I wish my job permitted me (then AND now) to work from home. I’d be more than willing, but I don’t think my boss has ever even considered the possibility.

But I do have to also agree with Mr. Permit Me, because I’ve also felt that if people still have to go to work in a snowstorm, then the kids should also have to go to school. The usual excuse for the staying at home is because the teachers have to drive in from wherever they live – which is the number one reason why I think school should still be open. SO WHAT if the teachers still have to drive in? I still have to drive to work; why shouldn’t they?

Granted, buses are more difficult to maneuver in a snowstorm, but if the parents brought the kids in instead of expecting the buses to (and I know there are some children whose parents don’t drive at all, and I’m not expecting these kids to even bother coming in if the buses aren’t running), then there’s no logical reason why school can’t be held.

CT Taxpayer

To “Permit me to ask why”: Children stay at home because the younger ones lack the maturity and even the physical ability to stay out of harm’s way when the roads are bad, and it isn’t economically feasible to have some schools open, but not others. As a political and legal issue, there would be ten hells to pay if one child was injured because of dangerous road conditions, and I wouldn’t blame the parent to sued. But this article has nothing to do with the children; it has to do with adults whose own contracts say that they should be at work on snow days, but whose superiors have not required it. How many would go into the office for an extra day without pay? On the other hand, all of them are happy to take a day off that doesn’t count as a vacation or sick or personal day.

Mr. Colarossi: This is a contractual matter. The board and the administrators’ and secretaries’ bargaining units agreed on its terms, and so everyone should be expected to follow the terms of the contract.

Some of those administrators are receiving huge salaries. Taxpayers should expect them to be at work, available to parents who may need to talk to them, even if the students are not at school. Also, since each school has no fewer than two administrators, what an opportunity it would be do do strategic planning with few interruptions of the normal school day.
CT Taxpayer

Correction to the above: “I wouldn’t blame the parent to sued” should read “I wouldn’t blame the parent who sued.”
Bruce Kimmel

Is it really a contractual issue or a past practice issue (which can be changed quite easily)? I do not recall such a provision in the contracts I worked on as a member of the BOE’s negotiating committee.

CT Taxpayer

It is a contractual issue, not merely past practice.

Bruce Kimmel

Are you saying there are specific provisions in the various BOE contracts that explicitly state that nurses, administrators, teachers, etc. do not report to school on snow days?

Don’t get me wrong: I am not suggesting that they should; I am fully aware that these days are made up in June. I just do not recall such provisions in the contracts for school nurses and administrators.

CT Taxpayer

There are no provisions in the teachers’ contract or in the contract of anyone who works only for the school year (classroom aides and some secretaries) because those people don’t get paid vacations. (For the benefit of those who don’t understand that, even though teachers’ and school-year secretaries’ salaries are paid every other week, including vacation weeks, the salaries they get are for a specific number of days worked. They work that number of days even if they have to make up school cancellation days at the end of the year.)

Administrators and year-round secretaries are different. (There are some secretaries who don’t work during vacations or during the summer, and so they are treated just as the teachers and aides. I’m not referring to these people.) The administrators (I’m not sure about the elementary assistant principals, who may have a different work year, when compared to other administrators) and year-round secretaries are entitled to x-number of vacation and personal days and sick days; they are expected to work all other days. If school is closed because of bad weather, the administrators and secretaries are supposed to use vacation or personal days, but they don’t. The result is that they work one less day per year for every snow day. It’s just like getting an additional vacation day every time it snows.

This was rambling, but I hope you can make sense of it.

Bruce Kimmel

Thank you. I appreciate the response.

Braemar

On the studens getting to and from school:
This is a safety issue/law suit prevention combo both for walkers and bus students. Also, all of the exits to to every school building must be shoveled to permit egress. This is a safety issue as well and is sometimes not ‘doable’ prior to the time for even a late school opening. The busses, road crews, custodians and weather people all decide if school is on or off. And don’t forget, students and their staff must work the day later on. It is not a paid day out for that group of staff.
Gallo is galatic

The issue was and is about the top brass. Our, day’s new, 2nd interim superintendent goes to work and he is the only one to do so. Ah a boss without emloyees what a wonederful warm impression. The IT guy gets to stay home because he cant fly, so, thats precedent for the entier staff. We sure have a very long way to go to get this ship afloat. Going to be tough for the board to find anyone of sustance to take on this mess. Mr. C is correct, its not fair to single out (all) indviduals if unwarranted, is it? Hey, if ya all havent noticed things are a real clustermuck as your property taxes climb while the value continues on the down glide and services evaporate. Its a systemic structual design failure. Norwalk is not alone in its horrid public education system and it didnt happen overnight. Long neglected, the discussion of education in America needs to happen. Its a civil rights issue as well as a national security shadow that we need to shine light on and work hard for progressive reforms.

Can America continue to be a world leader if we dont have anyone minding the store. Have we really sunk that far, we allow models that get super rich dumbing down our children, that we are putting cartoon characters in seats of power? Maybe its time we broke the saturday morning aniaddiction and get real.

We need some one with foresight hindsight and great courage for the students lives.

Someone like this brave lady, Ms. Gallo, our neighbor and a true hero. She is “mad as hell and isnt going to take it anymore”. Check it out.

http://www.projo.com/news/content/central_falls_teachers_02-10-10_INHDDCD_v28.3b40f6e.html
OLD TIMER

Snow days for them must sit real well with the cops, firemen, health dept. staff, and DPW employees who are required to show up, no matter where they live. This thread raises a lot of questions that could be answered if we could see the contracts, as we can all the others. Do they get the summer off, like teachers ? Do they have to make up snow days at the end of the school year, like the teachers, and the kids ?
Braemar

No summer off. For most towns school administrators are 12 month positions. unfortunately for all of us, the administrator population is shrinking at an alarming rate while the legislated duties have increased. you will see popping in and out of positions all over the state like musical chairs. The openings are more numerous than the candidates.
To be a lower level certified adminsitrator you are looking at many credits past the 6th year of college and willingness to stick your neck out and make a decision or stand by a lower level employee who ha made a good one (a fading quality with litigation these days).
By the way, most schools that perform well have students coming in well trained in how to focus on lessons and a will to do student work. There is a line where learning is the student responsibility. That lack of preparedness, commitment and tenacity to do the rigor of learning is a national tragedy. Those qualities are grown in the family before and during early school years.
Most educators know that there is not much they can do with a student who does not care, or has no work ethic. Many efforts try to grow that but unsupported and not encouraged at home, they fail. It is demoralizing to staff to be continually told they are failing, when the staff knows they have spit all the nickels they have, and that so many students are not intersted to the point of distrupting learning for those who are.

Who is on Fault, why second, no clue on third

dear Braemar, you were doing great till –

“Most educators know that there is not much they can do with a student who does not care, or has no work ethic. Many efforts try to grow that but unsupported and not encouraged at home, they fail. It is demoralizing to staff to be continually told they are failing, when the staff knows they have spit all the nickels they have, and that so many students are not interested to the point of disrupting learning for those who are.”

That is the mentality that brought us to where we are, its not my fault its the parents, the race, the creed.

Nope, HUGE, disagreement there Braemar.

Is it the students that are, as you seem to indicate, unteachable or is it the teachers, parents and administrators or BOE members?

That’s where we are. ” I didn’t break it, they did”!!

Until we come to the understanding, that indeed, it does take a village and we all have a vested common interest in the education of every child, we will keep pounding the drum, beating each other over the head with the drumsticks as the parade of generations, with no leadership, continues to march off in every direction, completely clueless and unprepared, aware only of what time and channel American model comes on.

Geesh, are we really that far behind, (uninformed, illiterate, flat out stone stupid)?

Lets dumb everyone down a few more notches and just sell our sovereignty to the (lowest) bidder and put this American experiment thing to bed.

No Braemar, time to stop spitting out serious coin and start teaching and learning.

Students, teachers, parents, administrators, law enforcement and health professionals, all, must learn to learn.

There are good teachers and even a good administrator or two, what we have here is a complete collapse of structure in combination with zero leadership, none, the results.

The gap widens further and the fabric of our nation shreds further.

Teachers are the front line here, they are also our flank and rear.

Flack jackets on, this is war, let their be no doubt, this is a war AGAINST illiteracy, poverty, corruption and yes FOR basic human rights to live, to think independently, to ask and seek answers, to boldly take that one step for man and one leap for humanity as well as the American ideal to challenge wrong, that Ideal that we can make it better.

If any educator thinks any kid is unreachable, ( ah therein is the golden key), education (is not) the career for you.

Is not the America we all want to live in, an America where EVERY, child has access to a truly leveled sandbox?

Or is it just all a dream to pursue but never realised?

Hey Zombies wake the f-ck up, do something, start caring, start talking to each other, get to know your neighbor and your neighbors kids their teachers.

Pay attention to what is happening in the school, in the community east, west, north and south. Who, when, where and why?

Wonder if many of these issues would instantly evaporate if every teacher, every cop, EVERY city employee were mandated by contract to reside within city limits?

Being a parent is not just attending open house once a year and the farthest up the totem pole ya know is the principle.

Who is the mayor?

Superintendent, is that the guy who cleans and maintains the school?

B.O.E. is that an acronym for a N.C.L.B. test?

Involvement and self education on all levels is demanded to give your child a chance.

Being a teacher is not merely about salary and benefits, ask any teacher that the students like, they will have stories to tell of getting up every morning to meet and stimulate those twinkling inqusitive restless eyes awakening to the world.

If you really dont have teaching in you – and if you dont know who the good teachers are, ask the students, if your not on the list, why not?

Unfortunately we got lost somewhere along the way.

Maybe we can blame culture shock or techshock or twinkies.

We couldn’t possibly, all accept fault.

Its their fault

Its not the kids that are screwed up, its us adults. We live in the moment, careless and carefree. no sense of obligation or respect for each other.

Feel inspired to explore and ponder fellow travelers.

Like it our not we all are in this journey together

I’m thinking

that I’ve never read so much baloney at one time in my entire life.

Concerned

What’s the issue? I paid my Union dues so get that time. When are you idiots going to realize it’s my right as a member of the union. Man, this t’s me off!

Contract?

Hey Concerned, we all would love to see your contract. Sure there are many that would like to put that contract in its proper bin.

As in, “has bin, – relieved of responsibilty”.

http://YourCT.com Just Me

10 month employees bitch constantly about the fact that they have to work an “unpaid’ day in June, while not aknowledging that they were paid for not showing up for a day in the winter but were paid for it.
If it’s such a big deal, set the money aside – HELLO!
I retired last year but I’m seriously happy to not be listening to this BS from them!
NorwalkSpectator

Just a point about snow days and having the kids in school. I know a bus driver who drove a route in a nearby town. A few years ago, we had a freak snow storm that started during the day, so the kids stayed in school. There was about a half inch of snow on the roads when my friend was driving her route and had about 10 students on the bus when someone pulled out of a driveway in front of her and slid across the road. Unfortunately, this happened on the downward slope of a hill and L’s bus slid partially off the road too. No damage, no one hurt, and another vehicle was provided. I later saw the “hill” where this happened, and it wasn’t much to speak of. I appreciate the dilemma that working parents have when they have to go to work and the kids have a snow day, but at the same time, would you want your kids to have the experience that the students on that bus had? L said later the bus only slid for two or three seconds, but it was the longest two or three seconds in her life.
Braemar

In many many years, I have never heard certified staff upset that they were not paid for the make-up. They usually know it’s part of the # of days in their contract.
Added days = more pay as for anyone. But those snowdays are not additional, just make-up.
People are all over the map on whether some days should be called snow-days, so maybe that’s a rub. It’s always easy to complain when you are outside the group making decisions. Easy to say it should be done differently. When you get into the seat, there are not the options most imagine.
We see that in the White House now.
anonymous25

If DPW got out and plowed the streets at the onset of the snow rather than after it has fallen, schools would stay open! Why is it that schools in Michigan, Minnesota, etc… never close? Needless to say, they get a lot more snow than we do!

Permit me to state

that this is exactly the point I attempted to make. There is absolutely no reason why children in New England cannot attend school in all but the most intense snowstorms. Their parents are still required to get to work and they manage to do it in all sorts of weather including deep snow; there is no reason why schools cannot remain open and if you get there, you get there. And if you don’t, you don’t. We’re such a bunch of babies here in New England – a snowflake falls and it’s Armageddon at the grocery store. A light dusting sends the school board into a panic. Unbelievable.

NorwalkSpectator

From what I have been told, Anon25, you can’t plow the streets until there is at least a quarter of an inch on the pavement. DPW can pretreat with liquid salt, but they can’t plow until they have something to plow. With about 120 miles of road in Norwalk, and only so many trucks, it takes awhile. And there is also the issue of sidewalks and parking lots that have to be kept clear.

Permit me to remind you

that it does not matter whether there is a dusting, half an inch, or three feet of snow on the roads – the parents of these schoolchildren are still required to make it in to their jobs, so I fail to see why teachers are not required to make it in to THEIR jobs and school children to THEIR classes. There is no excuse that simply because it is snowing out is a reason to cancel school. Do employers cancel WORK simply because it is snowing? NO they do NOT, and we are all expected to be there regardless, aren’t we?

These snow days is a modern phenomena. I hardly think that former school children from the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s or earlier had “snow days” except in the case of the most extreme snowfalls. And they all managed to make it in to school and did not suffer unduly, nonetheless, neither will our own over-pampered and far-too-babied children.

NorwalkSpectator

Kindly read my comment posted above about the experience a friend had driving a school bus with a half inch of snow on the roads. Also please remember, West Rocks and All Saints are at the top of the West Rocks ridge. The choices to come down are many and varied. West Rocks down to France Street (done that in the snow and it was a thrill), West Rocks by Walmart (doable and possibly safer than going down by France St.) St. Mary’s Lane (never do that even in my wildest dreams), Aiken Street (did that one time in a rain squall which I never, ever hope to repeat); and Linden Street, which I have done in the snow and it wasn’t fun at all. Please remember that when the buses leave the schools, they are fully loaded. That means there can be around 40 kids on those vehicles. I think there may be one or two other routes that I’ve never taken, but those are the major routes. The bus companies also serve the three different levels of schools, which means that the same bus may make three runs in one day.

I appreciate the fact that parents have to work bad weather not withstanding. A family member works in a building that is located at the top of a very steep driveway that empties out on to Route 1 and I hold my breath every time there’s a snowfall because it’s private land and they get plowed last. I’ve actually slid down that driveway and out onto Route 1 on black ice. Fortunately, it was later at night and there was no traffic to speak of.

In the event of a catastrophic event like a sudden ice storm, the schools would probably keep the students there. But I suspect most parents would want their children in their own homes.

I fully realize that you will discount everything I said, but at least I mentioned it. And I sincerely hope I never, ever see a front page article in the Hour about a school bus accident in Norwalk because of snow.

Steve Colarossi

I just checked the NASA contract and there is no provision in it for snow days, so it would seem to me that keeping the central office open on school snow days with the people who belong to that bargaining unit would not violate the NASA contract. When I look into this matter in greater detail through the Finance Committee, I will certainly ask for an analysis if the contracts for the other 12-month employees include a snow day provision.
Many thanks to all of you who took the time to express your opinions on this matter.
Steve Colarossi

I just checked the NASA contract and there is no provision in it for snow days, so it would seem to me that keeping the central office open on school snow days with the people who belong to that bargaining unit would not violate the NASA contract. When I look into this matter in greater detail through the Finance Committee, I will certainly ask for an analysis if the contracts for the other 12-month employees include a snow day provision.
Many thanks to all of you who took the time to express your opinions on this matter.

No such thing

Mr Colarossi, NASA represents supervisors and assistants in a variety of departments but I don’t think any NASA people work for BOE. NASA has members only from city hall, DPW, the library, health dept etc. Norwalk City Hall employees in both NASA and NMEA (the clerical union) are expected to go to work regardless of the weather because City Hall is supposed to be open. However, the departments that don’t deal directly with the public can, ‘at the department head’s discretion,’ allow people to take vacation days or personal time if they choose not to come in on a snow day, and in some cases those depts will be completely closed. However, offices that deal with the public, like the tax collector, tax assessor, town clerk, etc are told, somebody has to be here, and the office has to be open. Period! The employees who work in those depts are aware that a condition of their employment is such that sometimes they have to drive in bad weather. City Hall was open, and those depts were all staffed last Tuesday. City Hall employees who chose not to come to work that day were charged either with a vacation day or a personal day. There is no such thing as a ‘snow day.’ I hope this helps. The only other thing I would add is, if people are able to take days off every time it snows, they must not have enough to do, because if I did that, I’d be behind in my work.

NorwalkSpectator

That’s odd because if I am not mistaken, the Hour just had an article on NASA union for the District filing a grievance against the BOE about the Director of Elementary Education position. Mr. Ditrio presented the Union’s evidence on Tuesday night.

CT Taxpayer

There is also no reason that principals and secretaries (except for those who work only the school year) can’t go to school on snow days, and there is plenty for them to do. Before Sal Corda, it was always done that way. You are treading on very uneven ground if you try to enforce a rule for only some members of the bargaining units, that is, unless the board negotiates it into the contracts.

Steve Colarossi

This is exactly the kind of sharing of information and ideas that is critical to a truly cooperative government. Many thanks to Mr. Kimmel, CT Taxpayer and No Such Thing, and to all the other posters.
http://YourCT.com Anonymouse

“No Such thing” – where are you coming from. NASA only represents the school administrators (Norwalk Association of School Administrators) and what you call the “clerical” union is the NFEP (Norwalk Federation of Educational Personnel). The snow days are NOT contractual, it was a practice Corda started because he was trying to find somebody out there who’d like him. That part of it didn’t work.
CT Taxpayer

The confusion in some of the posts is due to Norwalk’s having not one, but two different bargaining units called “NASA.” One NASA stands for the Norwalk Association of Supervisors and Administrators, which are board of education administrators. The other NASA stands for Norwalk Assistants and Supervisors Association, which represents city employees who do not work for the board of education.
OLD TIMER

If the City, and/or the BOE, would post contracts online, like the City website does for all the other contracts, it would be much simpler for the public. Most of us have no idea how many unions the BOE deals with. The City is the real employer, despite the limits on City control over the schools. The City personell director should be directly involved in negotiations with all the city employee unions.
The education industry in CT has been taken over by teachers with very effective lobbying. All management job requires teacher-dictated certifications, restricting any non-teacher from all management. There may be reasons, from a teacher’s point of view, for these restrictions, beyond job security, but they do not make sense to the public that pays the bills. An adminstrator needs a very different skill set from a teacher. The best possible candidates for some of the administrator jobs could be found in other industries. This is not anti-teacher, nor anti teacher unions, but critical of how education is managed. Our military have developed a much better education management system in which teachers teach and administrators administrate and they have entirely different skill sets. No teacher should ever have to buy classroom supplies. There needs to be a better system for evaluating and rewarding better teachers, and weeding out the worst. There needs to be more work on motivating students in primary grades and elimination of “social promotions”.
There may well be some excellent reason for closing down the 3rd floor during snow days . If there is, the public is entitled to hear it. We pay the bills.

No such thing

Go to the City of Norwalk web site, http://www.norwalkct.org, and click on the ‘site search’ link. type in ‘NASA contact’ and it will bring you to the Norwalk Assistants & Supervisors Association contract that runs thru 2011. I was not aware that there is ‘another’ NASA that is related to BOE – the NASA I was talking about in this thread is the one whose collective bargaining agreement is described above, and that NASA union does NOT have any BOE employees, just city hall, DPW, library and health dept administrators, as I posted above. I apologize for the confusion. That NASA contract IS out there on the city site for all to see (I just checked). However, what you won’t see is the recent ‘give back’ that (City Hall) NASA members voted, to give up a 3% wage increase next yr, in recognition of the city’s budget issues etc. so the part of the contract dealing with that will be different than what’s posted.

jillcooks

We live in Freeekin New England!!!!! snow happens!! this is NOT a new event…the idea that we cannot function when “weather” occurs is absurd.
What if the guy who makes latte’s at Dunkin Donuts doesnt show up for his shift, oh thats right he gets FIRED! Our Puritan ancestors would be mortified at our lack of work ethic and what incredible wusses we have become. So people, unless you live in Sarasota where ice and snow is an oddity, get up alittle earlier, clean off your car, warm it up and get in it and drive slowly to work! Its time to start acting like we are greatful to have jobs, and that we have a desire to keep them. Can someone tell me why they no longer put chains on the buses?

anonymous25

My point exactly!
Common Sense

Our Puritan ancestors would probably be more intrigued by our ability to live past age 30. We must be doing something right.

John

Part of the concern for getting the roads clear in New England is the hours and cost of plowing crews. In Michigan and Minnesota for example, where snow storms are more frequent and consistent from year to year, they have more trucks and staff available and budget more for snow removal. They have sidewalk plows, which are responsible for plowing a large segment of the city and town sidewalks so children can walk to school. You get what you pay for and I am not sure the taxpayers want to pay for that added expense, especially when most winters do not match this one.

OLD TIMER

Buses with rear engines and the right tires get along well without chains. School buses with front engines do OK, but not as well, and are not driven when there is a lot of snow on the road. Instead of chains on school busses, we have snow days.
Anne Sullivan

Chiming in with my experience as a NPS teacher. Took my students on the sidewalk around the school today, and there was ice, and a student slipped and got hurt….seems to me with a week off the sidewalks should have been safe!

NorwalkSpectator

Okay, let’s review…

When water (H2O) droplets are in a cloud and become too heavy. As they fall to earth, if it is too cold, the droplets form snow flakes. When the ground is cold enough, they stick. Then someone comes along and shovels the walkway. The snow that is removed is usually tossed on the grass nearby or piled someplace out of the way.

Then the sun comes out and the temperature rises. The snow melts and once it returns to water, gravity rules. If the walkway hasn’t been shoveled down to the bare asphalt or concrete, slush often forms. If the temperature drops, the slush freezes over into ice. If the snow is piled up, the water finds the lowest point to collect. That can be on the previously shoveled sidewalk. Once that happens, if the temperature drops again, then guess what? Ice forms. It happens again and again here in New England.

Usually the maintenance staff will put out some form of de-icer, whether it be sand or a chemical compound, but people still need to be careful. As a kid, sliding on ice was an irresistible temptation.

I’m sorry that your student got hurt, but it’s hard for me to believe that the walk was so poorly shoveled that it was such a danger. If so, why were the students in that area at all?

Anne Sullivan

Dear Norwalk Spectator:
“If so, why were the students in that area at all?
Because it was the sidewalk connected to the school….and children need to be outside on warm days…and it led directly to a door that is used for entering and exiting the school building.

Permit me to remind you

that if this was a sidewalk CONNECTED to the school, as you state – then why hadn’t the SCHOOL removed the ice/snow that made it a walking hazard, as they are required to do by city law?

CT Taxpayer

There may be a snowstorm before the end of the week. I wonder how many of Norwalk’s administrators will go to work if school is called off.

Permit me to wonder

how many days of school will be missed by the students, meanwhile their parents will still be expected to show up for work no matter how bad the commute, how slippery the hill, how deep the snow.

As for bus drivers, I would stake my life on betting they are better drivers with your 40+ kids on the buses than any one parent is with 3 kids or less in the car. How many automobile accidents have you read about or heard about in a snowstorm – versus SCHOOL BUS accidents??

The point, which seems to be continually missed, is that adults are not only *expected* to show up at work during a snowstorm, they are *required* to show up. Ask yourself, exactly what are we teaching our children by allowing them a day off simply because it’s snowing outside?

Anne Sullivan

Students will miss zero days of school – the school year will extend into late June.

Permit me to point out

that this is exactly the point – if they were’nt MISSING days NOW, they would have no reason to extend the school year into late June.

The point being, of course, that there is absolutely no reason for them to be missing days NOW to begin with.

CT Taxpayer

Are the central office administrators and building principals going to be at work today?
OLD TIMER

PERMIT ME TO WONDER
You don’t hear about many school bus accidents in bad weather for the simple reason they don’t go out in bad weather. The people who run the school busses have a very large part in the “snow day” decision and always have.
The City does not own or insure the busses. The bus companies do, and they are very aware of their liability. Snow days are called when a school bus company supervisor decides the risk is unacceptable. Nobody wants to take a chance on a bus full of kids being in a bad accident, but the decision is made by a not very well paid bus company employee, not a well paid BOE administrator.
“Staking your life on betting” that school bus drivers are better drivers than the average soccer mom is not supported by the facts. Moms don’t always get “snow days” off.
NorwalkSpectator

The School Bus supervisor doesn’t make the decision to call off school or have a delayed opening, it’s made by the Superintendent of Schools usually between 4 a.m. and 6 a.m. They are usually in touch with local weathermen and the various airports, getting the most accurate information possible. They start early because they have to contact the bus companies, and the teachers, many of whom don’t live in town.

Also, there was a school bus accident in Meriden this morning. Fortunately, no one was hurt. Bus drivers have commercial vehicle licenses, which are more difficult to obtain that regular driver’s licenses. The drivers go to a training course and have do fun things like backing the buses between cones, and know all sorts of facts about their vehicles. Neither the written test or the road test are easy. So, yeah, I think the bus drivers are a cut above the average mom in an SUV.
OLD TIMER

I didn’t mean to sound critical of the school bus drivers, and I know a few. They are better trained, and probably more focused on their driving. It is possible the system for deciding if there will be a snow day or not functions the way you have described, and I am sure that is the offical story, but, in the real world, nobody carries more weight in that decision than the local school bus company supervisor. Nobody will say that out loud, for the record, but I knew the man who held that position for years when Laidlaw had the contract, and he was the one who had to get to the bus yard very early, run a few of the more difficult back roads in a car, and make a decision that was relayed to the school superintendant, or, somebody in his office. The word then went out to local news media from the Superintendent’s office, even on days when the weather kept him from coming in until well after schools normally start.
I stand by the comment that the busses do not run when weather and road conditions are bad and that has a lot to do with why you don’t hear of many weather-related school bus accidents.
The school bus driver’s license, by the way, is not necessarily a commercial operator’s license. It can be a commercial license (CDL) or a class 1 or class 2 regular driver’s license, but, regardless of which license, it must have an S or P endorsement and there must be documentation of at least 40 hrs of specialized training. The training. and the documentation, are generally done by the bus company, and the instructor must be certified by the DMV.

NorwalkSpectator

I’m sure that the input from the bus company about road conditions was factored in by the Superintendent, but I also remember school cancellations that happened before the snow actually arrived and nothing was on the roads.

The bus driver I know got a commercial license.

Permit me to state once again

that this is exactly the point. Why is school cancelled when no snow has fallen? If working adult parents are expected to show up at work when it snows, why aren’t their children expected to show up at school when it snows? Life does not stop simply because it is snowing! And if the buses don’t run, those same parents who are expected to show up at work during a snowstorm can just as easily bring their children to school in lieu of putting them on the bus, thus completely eliminating any worries about school bus accidents during a snowstorm.

The teachers are expected to show up at school (or they should be expected to show up). The parents are expected to show up at work. So their children should be expected (and required) to show up at school. Schools should not be closed simply because of an everyday weather event. Schools are not closed during late spring heat waves. Schools are not closed during periods of heavy rains. Why should snow be any different? Heat waves are dangerous, especially for schools with no air conditioning (such as All Saints Catholic School). Heavy rains cause slippery driving conditions, pooling water, plugged drains, all dangerous driving conditions yet the buses still run.

Blizzard – sure. Hurricane? Of course. Flood – you betcha. But a snowstorm? Pa-leeeeze. It’s just snow, not the end of the world.

Chris Donahue

As often happens, we strayed from the original point… To me, if Central Office staff are not, by policy or contract, offered PTO for snow days, then every one they don’t come to the office for should be considered a sick day. And if they did not follow standard procedure for calling out, they should be disciplined accordingly.

In this litigious society, it makes sense not to put the city in a position of being sued because a student is injured going to or from school (especially on a school bus). We simply can’t afford it. And again, it is not a free day off, it is made up in June.

When I was a kid, my mom was a stay at home parent, so it wasn’t a hardship to find someone to watch my brother and me. Now I use a sick day to stay home (or my wife does). It doesn’t really bother me. That’s all part of parenting today.

As far as canceling before any weather, it relates to my earlier point. If I know a day ahead of time that the school will be closed, it gives me options of finding someone to watch the kids if I can’t take the day off from work (having Grandma come stay for a few days for example).

http://YourCT.com Anonymouse

Way back up there where “Common Sense” suggested that the BOE employees could work from home on their computers – for confidentiality reasons they aren’t allowed to access school-student information from outside computers.

NorwalkSpectator

That’s odd. I thought I heard that with the new system they could post grades from their home computers.
CT Taxpayer

Administrators can look up data on their home computers, and it is true that teachers can enter student grades from their home computers. Teachers aren’t the issue on snow days; administrators are. It isn’t enough for administrators to access student data while at home, and for that matter, they wouldn’t be doing anything with it anyway. Also, administrators can and should be available to the public during normal office hours, and that means that they have to go to work so people can call them and visit their offices. This applies to all NASA members, including principals and secondary assistant principals. I don’t know if it applies to elementary assistant principals. I think it also applies to secretaries.

Does anyone know if these people showed up for work on Friday? If I were a 1st or 2nd floor City Hall employee earning less than half of what the third floor employees make, I would be really angry to see all of the empty parking places on a snow day.

OLD TIMER

The decision to close the schools for a snow day involves calculating the risks involved in getting the kids to school safely, and the risks of getting them back home after school. When the forecast is for very heavy snow during the day, it makes sense to close the schools. Sometimes, in the coastal towns, like Norwalk, we get heavy rain when our nearby, but inland, neighbors get heavy snowfall. The difference is a degree or two in temperature and, if they have to make a decision where there is a doubt, they make the more cautious one. When that happens and all we get is rain, we criticize, if it had been snow, and driving was really hazardous, we would have criticized if they kept the schools open. The people who have to make the decision are in a difficult position and it makes sense for them to be very conservative.
Just me

The decision to close schools is based solely on the safety of the students.
The third floor at City Hall are not students. They are employees making big bucks who do not report the the schools for their daily work activities and therefore if City hall is open they damn better well be there. We as taxpayers sit back while the BOE people threaten to pull sports, music, languages etc from our kids programs each and every year. So as parents everyone gets in a tizzy and starts threatening those holding the purse strings and they get little Suzie and Johnny to tearfully address the Council and BET to please not cut our programs…etc. etc. etc. and yet they haven’t figured out yet that it is the administrators and secretaries and the unions who are causing much of the problems. Can someone tell me why an middle/elementary school needs two vice principals? Where the heck do we live…East L.A.?

Snow days are but a minor part of the problems with Norwalk Schools.
Maybe the interim Super will actually go to schools to see for himself the ways the budget can be curtailed. One council member actually asked him to do exactly this if you watch the meeting on channel 79…didn’t hear an answer but it sounds like a good idea. Another council member admonished the BOE for threatening to cut programs…interesting what you see on tape but not in the papers. Great idea to have these things televised.

This thread was originally about snow days but everyone seems to be bringing up alot of issues here that are worth reading so maybe turf will do a separate thread so people can discuss their concerns and maybe ideas on how to give the kids what they deserve and the teachers the tools to teach instead of paying high priced administrators and threatening student programs.

As for those on the 3rd floor…go to work and try to do what you get paid to do…snow days don’t include you!
John carvel

I would think that central office employees should and do telecommute on snowdays. They should have the ability to forward telephone calls to remote locations and access their necessary computer applications via the internet. I know many administrators in private industry who do this when weather or other incidents prevent them from making it into the office.