February 4, 2010 9:22 am

Council Republicans Nix Contractors Paying Their Fair Share

To understand why DPD Director Hal Alvord has been pushing for the elimination of the “three ton free” policy at the Norwalk transfer station, you have to understand how the transfer station works. If you are a resident, and you have a resident sticker on your car or SUV, you can drive up to the transfer station and unload your trash and recyclables at the station free of charge. If you have a commercial truck, or trailer, you drive into the transfer station, drives onto scales with the garbage and are weighed.��Then you dump your trash in the commercial section of the transfer station.

The City of Norwalk pays about $75 a ton to haul away trash from the transfer station. That number doesn’t change whether you pay a lightly higher mill rate because your garbage is collected by the City of Norwalk curb side, �or whether you drive it to the transfer station yourself. The City of Norwalk still pays the same amount at the end to haul away the garbage.

Clearly this COuncil is having difficulty �grasping big picture costs and expenses. Instead of identifying the overall costs, and trying to figure out how to reduce the amount of garbage being hauled away, which would actually be good for the enviroment and encourage residents to waste less, they focus on how “brilliant” they are at saving residents money without any data to back their assertions up, and nothing more that anecdotes based on heresy.

When we last looked that administrative process that DPW used, they relied on software �manage the tracking of the amount of garbage. On file was teh wieght of each commercial vehicle. The software is �apparently antiquated enough to not have a way to assign varying fees for the type pr amounts of garbage. Nor can it calculate cumulative totals on amount of garbage dropped off. So instead, it is done manually by DPW administrative staff. And then billed out to the vehicle owner and which is yet another administrative cost and then it has to be collected and so on. The cost of the “three free ton policy” is according to Halvord about $300k. He has brought this item to the attention of the Common Council since 2007.

DPW Director Alvord wants to eliminate the free tipping free policy in order to shift the payment of the tipping fee to sooner rather than later. Which means that the weigh-master would the ability to collect fees on the spot. Which means that contractors, who are the chief hauler of trash to the transfer station would pay the cost of the City of Norwalk having to haul away their trash.

For some reason, no one on the public works committee asked the number one question that they should have, which is whose trash are the contractors dumping in Norwalk? The answer, not surprisingly is the entire area’s trash, not just Norwalk, because every other transfer station or town dump has been raising fees on trash dumping because every municipality is facing the same issue– not enough revenues to keep up with the costs of services presently provided.

For Norwalk to move into the 21st century, it must start addressing how it does business. That means taking a critical look at who is being serviced by policies, reviewing the actual data, and making things easier and more cost effective for residents. Our government should not be asking residents to pay more in taxes just because council members can’t figure out that they are subsidizing contractors.

Kevin

As an aside note… I own a Honda Ridgeline (An almost pick-up truck). The state has it registered as a passenger vehicle. (Not a combo or commercial). It can, at most, carry 1,000lbs in the bed. When I go to the transfer station I have to be weighed. Now, I regularly see commercial vans. The white box ones. Which can carry significantly more weight than my truck, pulling up and dumping in the passenger car section. No one says a word to them. This has always puzzled me.

One of these days I will have to really complain that my Ridgline is registered as a passenger vehicle for a reason! Or I will just have to take my wifes accord.
BLARNEY

Turfy, Finally I agree with you 100%. Great article

turfgrrl

Blarney: Statistically there are so many issues out there, I’m bound to hit on one or two that some will find agreement with.

As always, I’m out here discussing them and encouraging all to debate the issues because that’s how we get better, smarter government.

OLD TIMER

If Alvord is talking about a reasonable fee for dumping real commercial vehicle loads and allows a resident with a couple of bags of household garbage, regardless of what he is driving, to dump free, then collecting at the time makes a lot of sense, if he has a reliable system for collection. Don’t they already do that for commercial garbage trucks ?
The big problem will be the people who will dump illegally somewhere rather than pay a fee. The City needs to to make illegal dumping penalties a whole lot more than any dumping fee, at the same time they change the present system. Now, illegal dumping penalties are cheap enough to make it worth taking a chance, rather than pay to dump at the transfer site.
Most contractors already rent a dumpster for any job they know will generate much trash.
There are builders who spend a lot of money cleaning up “vacant lots” before they can start construction in some very expensive neighborhoods where neighbors have routinely dumped for years.
family store

I don’t want to pay more to take out the trash, but my land lord doesn’t provide a dumpster so I bring my bags to the dump. I would prefer to have my garbage picked up. Who do I contact?
Doug Mouro

We had a similar issue in Branford, but we solved it by letting anyone pay to dump garbage at our dump. You give a credit card and you pay, it stopped illegal dumping.
Joe Desias

I am a contractor. I pay more in business taxes than you think. I don’t want to pay more money in this. You people just want to blame business people for everything.
parklover

I have to agree with Blarney, who agrees with TG. Somebody must have dumped some Ecstacy into the Norwalk reservoir.

I want to add another source of transfer station revenue for Hal and the Council to think about:

I have seen on many occasions both private and commercial trucks, large and small, without proper and legally required covers spewing trash down 95, Reed St., West Ave., Harbor Ave., Crescent St., and other city streets as they headed towards our transfer station. I have actually followed trucks from beyond our town line into Norwalk, spewing trash the whole way in uncovered trucks, heading off the Exit 15 ramp directly to our transfer station, confirming TG’s theory that other towns trash is heading to our dump, even if the trucks are registered in Norwalk.

A big percentage of the trash along these roads can be attributed to these lazy contractors or private citizens. In Ithaca, NY, a town I am familiar with since I used to go to their dump a lot, a city employee stands at the entrance to the transfer station there and writes an instant ticket with a fine to any vehicle that arrives without a cover.

If we charged a $100 fine, that went directly into the city coffers and not to the state, we could make thousands of dollars a day, guaranteed, from uncovered trucks. Of course this would diminish when the lazy fools caught on, but the result would be instant cleaner (and safer) streets. Look at the 3rd world condition of Crescent St. if you want to see what a disgrace our city is because of un-enforced rules. Or look at any city street after garbage day, with trash from ripped bags laying about on lawns and in gutters, to see the results of un-enforced city rules. If business of ticketing uncovered trucks slowed at the transfer staion, the DPW ticketing officer could then go through neighborhoods on garbage day and ticket businesses and homeowners who leave uncovered trash bins or plain bags in no bin at all, out all night exposed to animals, who tear through the bags and leave trash strewn down the streets adding to our litter crisis. He or she could also go out after snow storms, after the 12 hour grace period, and ticket the lazy homeowners, businesses, and condo associations who don’t care about clearing their sidewalks of ice and snow (ongoing issue in many neighborhoods, trust me!).

Imagine, we actually improve the quality of life in Norwalk, and make some good income (even after paying the enforcement costs of a full-time employee)that would help keep our taxes down.

But, this probably makes too much sense for our volunteer amateur Common Council to grasp, I’m afraid.
My Ecsatcy high is wearing off, must sign off to get another drink of water…..

Ecstacy User

Excuse me, but as an avid user of ecstasy I think your way off. It’s never made more agreeable with anyone. Just more fun. And who the heck deserves a fine for littering when the DPW garbage guys make no attempt to clean up anything that THEY drop or spill out of the cans as they pick up the trash. Not sure who collects your garbage., but if it’s city guys you know what I’m talking about.

parklover

Ecstacy has worn off, and like I said it must have been in the water supply. Seriously, recent NYTimes article on drinking water gave a scary summary of the amount of detectable legal and illegal drugs, including estrogen that is suspected of lowering puberty age in girls and causing cancer, that slip by the outdated testing procedures and filtering of municipal water supplies. That’s another thread…

As far as garbage goes, yes you are right there are some sloppy DPW employees, but the majority of the trash that I see accumulating in my neighborhood occurs prior to their arrival from ripped bags from raccoons and even seagulls, in uncovered cans and bags just left out with no protection at all. To expect a DPW employee to pick up ripped and sometimes shredded bags, and to clean up the mess that is not their fault, is expecting too much don’t you think?

I also know, from collecting milk jugs out of people’s recycle bins for several blocks around my house, for an art installation last year (they ended up back at the transfer station eventually to be recycled), that many people are clueless about the recycling and garbage rules, especially renters in multi-families, and they also pile up bags that are too heavy, over-filled with cardboard and glass bottles that should be recycled, have sharp metal sticking out of them, etc. Stamford now has large wheeled bins that take all the recycling, and offered them free to their residents. They also ticket people who don’t follow the rules, as do most other major cities. Why do you have an aversion to enforcing the rules in this city, especially ones that contribute to cleaner streets and a better quality of life for everybody? Take a walk with me if you’d like on garbage day, and see what people do. You will have a whole new persective on what a DPW trash guy has to deal with.

Secondhand Rose

$75 a ton does not sound like a huge amount of money to me.

That said, maybe Norwalk could do what they do in Darien, and when people bring things to the dump such as Christmas trees or yard refuse (branches, trees, and so on) it could be piled separately and then chipped, and the chippings sold by the City to homeowners. It’s not a lot of generated revenue, but it’s better than nothing. And we (the City I mean) could check with the Town of Darien and see how much they’ve generated in revenue by this chipping method over the years to see if it would be a worthwhile endeavor.

Chris Donahue

Rose -
Yard waste and Christmas Trees are processed at an entirely different facility. I always thought they should compost it and use it to frtiliize city owned parks and gardens…

Bruce

hey what else do we expect from repubs ,

hopefully i will post some useful info soon that shows why they are protecting their own at our expense.
Truden

Same people were against charging for stickers. Same people who are against everything. The party of NO! Time to say good riddance.
longtimer

So when the Democrats were in charge the Republicans criticized them for not being financially responsible. Now the chickens are coming home to roost. First they gave $2 million dollars to Nick Kydes’ family. Now they want to give $300 thousand to contractors. Isn’t Andy Kydes a contractor? Well cronyism is alive and well. Looks like we got fooled this past election. It won’t happen again.
endless love

Hey we’re Norwalk come dump on us. We keep electing people who don’t care that we are drowning in debt and can’t afford to see our tax dollars wasted by officials who want to protect their supporters.
ex-council

Guys..
it is possible that the common council is working on the issue and will make recommendations to the staff.
Have Fun
BLARNEY

I think the biggest problem will be to stop illegal dumping. It won’t be easy until someone is made an example of. There is about 8 prime spots to dump illegal garbage in the city. The problem is that it is not feasible to put any type of surveillance system in those locations. When someone dumps trash illegally it usually appliances or furniture etc. They are usually not dumb enough to drop a garbage bag full of opened bills with their name and address on them. On the other hand that’s how we found a guy from Westport a couple of years ago who was putting his garbage in the neighborhood so Norwalk would collect it. He was actually a lawyer and definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer. The NPD gave him a call and that was the end of that.

Secondhand Hosebeast

Not feasible to install surveillance? Give me a break. For several hundred thousand the City could commission yet another study or go down to Radio Shack and set up surveillance for a couple of thousand. This is the 21st century, remember?

Amy F.

I don’t see why this is such a big deal. We should be encouraging folks to not waste so much. Charging for garbage is just one way to do this.
OLD TIMER

If a fee to dump was more than enough to cover the City’s cost, what would be the problem taking trash from out of town ? The City could even make a few dollars.
There are very few places where it would not be feasible to put surveilance cameras where they would be completely out of sight, for very little money.
All it would take would be one or two arrests, with real penalties that should include removing everything dumped, and fines for the dumping, to have a big effect on illegal dumping. The right camera setup, monitored full time, could be moved around from time to time and used to detect other kinds of crime and the people responsible. They are using cameras all over the country to monitor intersections for red light violations and the cameras make plenty of money.
I want answers!

Look, here’s the plan: let’s get the moth balls out of Geakes’ pockets and run him on the Pappy O’Daniel platform. Moral Fiber! We’ll clean up the trash in Norwalk faster than you all know. And if needed we bring in the Angels to back it all up!
Carol

I don’t want my taxes to go up more than they have to. What is wrong with these elected people? Stop wasting our money!
My Tax Dollars

I drive a pickup and use the town dump at least once a week. I have never had to have my truck weighed. I think that no one actually checks to see if I have a sticker either.

Anon

Do you show ID when you go through? I doubt you are just driving in, dropping off garbage and driving out. I also doubt you are dropping off a ton at a time. I been using the transfer station for years as we have no city garbage pick up and pay a garbage collector. I have NEVER not been weighed and have had to show a special card, updated yearly, for as long as I can remember. Has anyone inquired how much a dump fee is for the commercial trucks? 2k? Yes, there is a better solution but MAYBE the Common Council is simply trying to not take away more services for Norwalk residents. I suspect that if they introduced a fee people would be crying that one more thing has been taken away from them.

Tex

Where is the number of trucks that pass through?
Secondhand Rose

*chortle* Pappy O’Daniel platform! Moral fiber! *guffaw*

Better hurry up before the council gets the idea to R-U-N-N-O-F-T.
http://www.reglansafety.com David

Hi Everyone,

I just wanted to share my thoughts on this issue.

Since there is presently no known evidence that it is only contractors using the dump, it may be residents who already are paying taxes to pick up garbage but are repairing their homes.
advardino

Alvord just keeps telling lies. The council members are doing the right thing.
Same Old Story

Why is everything so difficult for the politicians? Norwalk needs to do things for its residents, not be stuck in the past.
OLD TIMER

Is all this discussion based on Alvord claiming the present policy cost the City $300, 000 a year, or is there real hard data to support that number ? At $75/ton, that is 400 tons. Is he claiming staff accurately tracks the total weight dropped off free each year by residents with commercial vehicles, excluding their own ordinary household trash ? Just because a resident drives a truck doesn’t mean he should pay to dump his own household trash. I go to the transfer station, occasionally, and I find it hard to believe anybody is collecting that information. Somebody should make him show the data he is using to reach a number like that, if it exists. He should have a list of the local contractors dumping 400 free tons a year with details of how many trips and the weight dumped each time.
turfgrrl

Old Timer: As far back as 2008 I believe hard data was available on the financial impact, and corroborated by Tom Hamilton. Procedures have indeed changed, so updating that data is warranted.

The issue is not about residents driving a truck, it is about residents driving at truck with a few bags of garbage. It’s about truck beds filled with garbage coming in daily or weekly. Setting policy, recording and tracking what actually happens, instead of reflexively sticking one’s head in the sand instead of crafting policy is what is needed here. Just like having people pay for the convenience of online registrations of say, a beach/resident sticker, improves customer service for residents, reduces operating costs for the City and still allows for people to do things the old fashioned way in person for free. This council never seems to grasp policy that can accomplish more, and instead goes down the path of all or nothing.
OLD TIMER

Without seeing the data, if I was on the council, I would not take Alvord’s word. I would be cautious about Hamilton’s corroboration because he has been known to take Alvord’s word for the data and confirmed arithmetic, after accepting that the raw data was correct, because it came from Alvord. If they really have the list of contractors and the actual weights dropped off, why not provide that to the council ? Unless, of course, it doesn’t come close to Alvord’s number. Do they keep records of weight dumped by private trash collectors ? Do they pay by weight?
Any resident dropping off more than a few bags of household trash should pay the same fee the private collectors pay and it should be enough to cover the City’s costs. That “first three tons a year free” policy would require a lot of work to keep track of, if they did. Residents that don’t get City collection and bring their trash to the transfer station are there every week and never bring more than a few bags.

turfgrrl

Old Timer: You comment doesn’t make any sense. Right now, a commercial truck pulls in to the transfer station, gets weighed, dumps trash and then sometime later gets an invoice if they are over the three tons cumulative. Right there, is a cost savings, since why invoice down the road when you can charge on the spot. To characterize Tom Hamilton as just accepting Alvord’s numbers as “theoretical” when in this case there is obviously a count of how much garbage is hauled away, and how much in total is dropped off in the commercial section, and how much is charged for. These aren’t complicated calculations, and Hamilton is looking for and recommending cost recovery based on actual numbers.

OLD TIMER

If your description of the process was accurate, then producing the records to show how much garbage actually comes in free from commercial sources should be simple. Why does my suggestion that information be given to the council not make sense ? Anybody dumping truck loads of trash should have a permit and an account where the load gets weighed and the account charged accordingly. If the account is set up with a credit card, the City collects electronically almost immediately, and the credit card company makes monthly statements available. City does no further paperwork. Occassionally, somebody without a permit and an account could show up and they need a way to collect from him at that time.
I think you will find private collectors do not pay by weight, but pay a monthly fee based on nominal or registered capacity (well under real load weight) and the only people the City weighs every time and charge by actual weight are the local residents who arrive in commercial vehicles and claim free dumping under that “first three tons free” policy. Alvord is on the right track, trying to eliminate that practice, but is likely making up numbers to justify his proposal because he doesn’t have good data. There are plenty of local residents who dump there free with nobody keeping track. Demolition trash, like sheetrock and used lumber, is not allowed there. What trash is getting dumped free that adds up to $300,000 ? Is he proposing local residents dumping their own household garbage, and driving pickups, should be charged, but not if they drive passenger vehicles ? I had a pickup and a car, at one time, and took my household trash there once a week. I don’t believe anybody kept track of the weight of my trash, or that it ever went over three tons in a year.
Just for laughs, why don’t you see, as a media representative, if you can get a copy of the data that shows the City is now handling $300,000 worth of free garbage. I bet you can’t. I bet you will discover they don’t send out many bills, either. Managed right, they wouldn’t need to send any. A lot of businesses now require credit car processing and don’t have to send bills anymore.
Where did you find the word “theoretical” ? I didn’t use it.

turfgrrl

Old Timer: You are saying on the one hand that the first 3 tons free policy is a ton of work. That is what Alvord says. You then say you want to see the numbers because you don’t trust Hamilton or Alvord. Okay, but which at what point do you either a) accept that the manual process is a ton of work and need to reduce operating costs or b) ignore the ton of work and dicker over the numbers of commercial garbage drop off? That’s what doesn’t make sense.

Projections are projections. Either you accept the underlying premise that the current operation needs to be changed, or you don’t. The cost factor, a person to track and bill, plus total commercial garbage dumped is enough to make a judgement on whether you want cost recovery or not. To do nothing is simply to keep costs at the current rate plus.

OLD TIMER

We all (you me, and Alvord) agree the “first three tons free” policy for residents driving trucks is bad policy and needs to end. I said they need to charge all commercial trash loads by weight and avoid doing a lot of supporting paperwork. If your truck has a permit and you authorize charging a credit card account electronically every time you bring a load, the problem is pretty much solved. The by weight charge should, at least, meet the City’s costs or exceed them by a small margin. Residents bringing their personal household trash, regardles of what they drive, should still be able to dump at this tax-supported facility free, but only a reasonable amount of one household’s trash.
I never argued against collecting a fee that covers the City’s costs from any commercial trash hauler. I questioned Alvord’s numbers, which were not offered as projections, but presented as facts. He wants to get a policy change and is making up numbers to make it sound like the change will save a lot of money. (prove me wrong, ask to see the supporting data)
I believe that most trash, not brought by City trucks, comes in private trash collector’s trucks, and not from other “contractors”. Contractors, in most trades, generate trash that is not accepted at the transfer statation and they hire dumpster services to haul construction waste away. Private trash collectors pay for a permit for each truck, not by weight for each load, and there is a considerable difference. That policy also needs to be changed, for the same reasons.
Apathetic Voter

Seems to me I heard somewhere that Norwalk takes trash from other towns? Can this be true? And if it is true, do these other towns pay for the privilege? If they pay, how much?
OLD TIMER

Private trash companies get permits for their trucks and bring the trash to the transfer station. Some of them have customers, and permits, in other communities. It is logical to assume that the drivers bring the loads to wherever is more convenient, or less expensive. Some loads brought to Norwalk may very well be from out of town. There is no good way to know, short of going through the garbage. If they were paying a fee based directly on the actual weight of each load, and that fee was enough to cover Norwalk’s costs, it would not be a problem. If it was more than enough, it might even be a good thing.
turfgrrl

Old Timer: Alvord explained the calculation thusly “We know how much tonnage was brought in free during the last fiscal year. Then we calculated the estimated revenue at the tipping fee rate that would have been charged were there no free tonnage. The estimated lost revenue is $305,000.”
parklover

Another lost opportunity for revenue as I outlined above, which the Common Council ignored, as usual:
If uncovered trucks that showed up at the transfer station, which spew garbage along our streets and highways, were given a ticket like other towns do, and we fined them $100 each, we could collect over $200,000 a year, at least, in fines. This is based on 10 trucks a day getting fined=$1,000 a day, X 5 days a week = $5,000 a week = $240,ooo a year. We collect revenue from lazy truck drivers who break th elaw (it is required to cover your truck), and we clean up our streets. I see uncovered trucks show up all day long at the transfer station.

When are we going to start enforcing the rules around here?
Why does Hal Alvord and the common council have such a problem enforcing rules like other cities do?
This city, and our quaint obsolete form of government, run by volunteer amateurs and a do-nothing mayor, is broken. And its been broken for decades. Its why cities all around us are moving rapidly ahead, while we sit here and let our city be run by fools like Kydes.
OLD TIMER

TG:
That explains how he claims to have gotten to the $305,000 number, but, if that is true, how does he now explain that reducing the “first three tons free” down to “first one ton free” (by 2/3) will only result in $45,000 more for the City, instead of $200,000 ?
Parklover
Enforcing that law about failure to cover/secure a load sounds like a very good idea, but the fines for MV violations do not go to the City, they go to the State.
parklover

Old Timer,
You may be right, not sure if the city can keep those fines. We need a lawyer!But I doubt there is a restriction on the city passing its own ordinance about uncovered vehicles, making an uncovered truck full of trash a violation of city code. We have other ordinances that duplicate state regs.

Secondhand Rose

We have ordinances right now that prohibit blowing grass and leaves into the street, yet I have never seen them enforced, and landscapers do this on a weekly basis during the spring, summer and fall. What good are creating more ordinances if the ones we already have are never enforced? There are already anti-littering ordinances on the books yet there is garbage everywhere scattered along almost every street in town – plastic grocery bags caught in bushes and trees – contents of car ashtrays dumped alongside parked cars – crushed plastic alcoholic beverage containers and soda cans blown under shrubbery – broken glass everywhere. Clean up the problems that already exist.

OLD TIMER

Good luck getting the council to pass the ordinance and somebody, probably the legal dept., developing a “ticket” for violating local ordinances that doesn’t go to a state court where the state collects the fines and sends the money to Hartford. Most ordinances are not enforced because the mechanism went away when they eliminated City courts. Try pleading not guilty to a parking ticket. They are based on local ordinance and there is no court to take your not guilty plea. The City has a mechanism, but it is administrative, not judicial, and there is no trial. The cops have the power to enforce ordinance violations, but are well aware of why it is generally not worth the bother. The can issue state tickets for ordinance violations, but the state courts are generally reluctant to prosecute and much prefer state law violations be charged. The prosecutors are trained to prosecute state law violations. The only reason parking tickets work at all is the risk of increasing penalties and the cost of fighting a ticket far exceeds the fine.