October 30, 2008 10:26 am

Nattering Nabobs Of Negativism

Bill Safire coined the term way back before the burning of the credibility of the white house, but specifically for Nixon VP Spiro Agnew to use against the “liberal” media. But everything old is new again, so I’ll dust off the term and liberally apply it to the furious fifty who like to show up at every hearing clutching dreams of conspiracy.

It would be an honorable opposition to engage in debate armed with facts. But the local nattering nabobs of negativity don’t often speak from facts. Instead they rely on ludicrous claims. For example, at the Tuesday Common Council Meeting, Gail Wall had the audacity to say that the Stepping Stones Museum is inaccessible to the residents of Norwalk who can’t afford to pay a $9 admission fee. She opposed the expansion of the Museum because it would be taking public land and giving it to private business at the expense of residents of Norwalk. The Advocate reported:

City resident Gail Wall urged council not to approve the plan. She said open space in the park will be reduced if the project goes ahead.

“Stepping Stones encroaches on public use and availability to all of our community particularly the children who cannot afford the $9 entry fee,” said Wall.

“We have treated this property with disrespect,” said Wall who urged councilors to take a “very hard and sharp look at this,” and not approve it.

Gail Wall isn’t just some private citizen, armed with misinformation. She is the chairwoman of the Norwalk Democratic party. She should know better. � Fortunately Democratic Council Members Steve Serasis and Amanda Brown both spoke passionately about all the work that Stepping Stones does in terms of programs and outreach to Norwalk’s school children. And importantly, the museum provides free admission to much of Norwalk’s school children.

After 14 meetings, several of them public hearings, Diane Lauricella still has the temerity to say to the Advocate:

Diane Lauricella said the process was not as open as it could have been, adding the council has to “understand it serves the voters.”

“The council has to understand its role. They still don’t get it,” Lauricella said Wednesday. “I think the council needs some type of training.”

Really? 14 meetings aren’t enough? Not to mention all the meetings years ago concerning the introduction of Stepping Stones to the park (5 years in operation) and the master plan for the park (10 years ago.) What Lauricella doesn’t say is that she herself asked for a meeting with Stepping Stones, and got one, to go over her concerns. What is the point of meetings if not to engage in dialog about the issue and voice concerns and propose alternatives or solutions? More are needed? Well, there are more meetings scheduled. The checks and balances of government are in play here as the site plan for the project is before zoning and the project will have another public hearing on November 19th, and a committee meeting on November 13th.

I’m sure that some people will resent being called negative. But negativity without facts is just that. Being factual would go a long way to establishing credibility. It’s time for the nattering nabobs of negativity to stop following the Nancy Reagan methodology of just saying no, and figure out a better way to express constructive criticism that effects change in a positive direction for all of Norwalk.

source: Advocate, Residents share concerns about station expansion, By Martin B. Cassidy, 10/30/2008

source: Advocate, Stepping Stones expansion wins council support, By Frank MacEachern, 10/29/2008

which side are you on, boys…

“…Penned by speechwriter William Safire, the “nattering nabobs of negativity” was the phrase used by former Vice President, Spiro Agnew, to refer to the “liberal” media. Agnew had reason to discourage press scrutiny: not only was he in the Nixon administration, but he would later be convicted of tax evasion and money laundering in connection to bribes he took as governor of Maryland.

“Ironically, the “nattering nabobs of negativity” more appropriately describes Nixon’s vice president and his political progeny. Agnew’s brand of rhetoric was shrill and aggressive. He questioned the patriotism of any who opposed the Nixon administration’s Vietnam policy. He constantly and consistently defined GOP enemies as “communists” and “hippies” and saved his harshest words for those that opposed the war. In short, he was a pioneer of the rhetoric that the Republican Party and their conservative allies perfected in the 1990s through talk radio and the 1994 campaign, rhetoric that would later permeate all things conservative. Rhetoric that was bitter, fantastic, and divisive…”
old timer

“nattering nabobs of negativism” Wasn’t that code for those who disagree with the Nixon administration ? The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Just because somebody disagrees doesn’t justify name-calling, unless, of course, you don’t have rational argument, based on fact. There are a number of people in the current administration who frequently resort to name calling, unfortunately. One of their other favorites is to claim that public comment has no value if the commentor holds a position in an organization and the minutes of that organization don’t show authorization for the comments. What minutes show the authorization for the chair of zoning, or the mayor, to call speakers names ?
Anonymous

I prefer “Dithering Douchebags of Denial.” Fits Norwalk better.

With respect to the quote from Agnew, what Spiro said was essentially the same tactic that the Rethuglicans have been perfecting since Karl (same spelling as Karl Marx! Could he be a socialist in drag?) Rove brought his bag of slimy tricks to the Bush campaign.

Rove learned well from his mentor, Lee Atwater, who was father of the Willie Horton smear campaign against Michael Dukakis in the 1988 presidential campaign when he ran against Junior’s daddy.

What a lot of “patriots” are forgetting, or turning a blind eye to, is that John McKKKain is now using the same tactics that Karl and Junior employed against him in the 2000 GOP primaries when they initiated a whisper campaign that alleged McCain had fathered a black child out of wedlock.

Which is all well-documented, but which are tactics that are much more sophisticated than the local Gomers in the GOP are capable of…
Diane C: fact seeker

TG: can you please identify the 14 meetings, where they were held, and how many had “public input” as an agenda item or were in itself a “public hearing”? Many thanks.
turfgrrl

Diane C: That would require some research regarding dates, and admittedly I�m going on what was said at the meeting the other night. But we have the Planning Commission, Building & Land use Committee, Recreation and Parks, that have all met (open to the public) on the issue, most met more than once with this on the agenda. There were public hearings held by Parks & Rec and Building and Land Use on this. And in zoning we�ve already had one committee meeting on this. I didn�t type the meetings listed by Doug Hempstead in my notes, but they were said then.
turfgrrl

old timer: Don�t confuse what I say with what others say. I own my words here, unlike most anonymous people here. And if the world becomes unhinged because I accuse people of being negative without cause, then so be it.
Diane C: just asking

Lorraine, with all due respect don’t believe all that you hear, especially numbers-related. You would think a number is a number and can’t be manipulated to fits ones argument, but it can. I’ve heard 5, 9 and 14 all in one evening related to this project!
When I do get the list (either here or research on city website) I am telling you upfront that I am going to identify those meetings where the public can speak and ask questions and those where they can observe. Also, for a fact there was only one public hearing on the initial plan and it was a joint hearing of the Land Use and Recs & Parks. I submitted my comment to Mr. Bondi who was to share with his entire committee and also Mr. Hempstead’s Land Use. Beyond that, one could always email the council, which I sometimes do, but to the best of my knowledge there was not any other opportunity to speak or inquire publicly. And since TG mentioned 14 meetings in her post, I assumed she may already have the list of them.
turfgrrl

Diane C: No, that was me. I was logged in as Lorraine yesterday to demo how to post. I didn’t realize it till stuff posted and went back to correct it.
Diane C: aha!

and I had said to myself, darn, that gal writes just like TG! And I was scratching my head thinking “who the heck is lorraine on zoning?”
LOL – thanks for clarifying – I have some time now before going to visit my sis, so I will try and come up with the list from our handy-dandy, website (not). Speaking of which, I understood from a nice fellow named Larry the other day they are apparently are still soliciting feedback from residents on how to improve website (didn’t know they had asked at all, though) and you can forward them other municipal websites that you like and they will consider their formats, ease of use, etc. I’ve enjoyed using Davenport Iowa’s site when I am conducting benchmark analysis,and it was developed by a website design firm that that specializes in goverment and municipalities.
But I digress, back to the meetings: If I come up with 14, owe you beer or bourbon, whichever. My guess is 7 meetings and one public hearing. Be right back….
turfgrrl

Diane: Yeah if its less than 14, I’ll owe you beer or bourbon too. Don’t forget that LMM and Stepping Stones held meetings about this open to the public too, and these days I’m drinking Victory Hop Devil

You’re right on the website overhaul too. The Planning commission is active in that area too.
Diane C: aha!

Oh, now THAT is EXACTLY what I mean by manipulation of the numbers! LOL – you cannot be including LMMM and SS meetings as being park of our governmental process. But let me get the numbers first and see if you get a “get outa jail free” card for that one, or go directly there and not pass go. Victory Hop Devil. omg – what is this world coming to!
I gotta scoot but will do meeting count as soon as I get back – I got sidetracked before.
But speaking of planning comish, I volunteered with Larry in IT to be a “dumb user” for testing purposes (and not far from the truth, huh?. I hope planning comish solicits LOTS of PUBLIC INPUT. wink wink wink.
be back later
Peter Nolin

For this limited purpose of supplying purely factual information for hte public, I will break my personal rule of not posting to this site. For the record I think it was 8 public meetings and one public hearing before this weeks Council Meeting. Here is what I presented to the Common Council on 10-28-08:

STEPPING STONES MUSEUM FOR CHILDREN
APPLICATION CHRONOLOGY 2008

August 12 Apply to Director of Recreation and Parks to begin process of lease modification; Application letter copied to Mayor Law Department and Alan Lo as staff to Council Land Use and Building Management Committee.

August 19 Meeting with Mayor to present expansion plan.

August 20 First presentation to Council Recreation, Parks and Cultural affairs Committee at regularly schedule public meeting.

August 26 First presentation to Council Land Use and Building Management Committee at public meeting.

August 26 Application to Zoning Commission to approve proposed expansion and parking plan and amend special permit.

September 11 First presentation to Zoning Commission committee at regularly scheduled public meeting.

September 17 Public hearing before Council Recreation, Parks and Cultural affairs Committee and Council Land Use and Building Management Committee.
Recommendation from Council members that SSMC seek Lockwood Mathews Mansion Museum (LMMM ) agreement on SSMC parking plan

September 19-
October 1 Various calls and meetings between SSMC and LMMM, including meetings of involved Board members and architects to discuss alternative parking plan that would be farther from Mansion and more easily screened. Presentation to various City staff on proposed plans.

October 2 Second presentation of Zoning Commission committee at regularly scheduled public meeting.

October 14 8-24 review by Planning Commission at regularly scheduled public meeting. Finding that agreed modified parking plan adopted by SSMC after discussion with LMMM meets City�s master plan.

October 15 Second presentation to Council Recreation, Parks and Cultural affairs Committee at regularly schedule public meeting. Committee votes to send plan to Common Council

October 16 Second presentation to Council Land Use and Building Management Committee at regularly scheduled public meeting held at Lockwood Mathews Mansion. Chair permits comments from the public and interested parties including SSMC and LMMM. SSMC agrees to minor modification of its plan to leave some existing City parking in place pending any update of the master plan for Mathews Park. Committee votes to send modified plan to Common Council

October 22 SSMC presentation to Norwalk Historical Commission at regularly scheduled public meeting.
turfgrrl

Well that’s not 14. Diane I owe you beer/bourban and thanks Peter for posting the facts. But I do get to say isn’t 8 enough? Wasn’t that a TV show too?
Anonymous

Peter, that’s not enough! The nabobs want more meetings; at least a dozen more. Let’s wait, even, until the next Mayoral election in the event Morris is elected. Then we’ll have The Permanent Commission on the Status of Stepping Stones. They can meet once per week. Staffed by Ethics Committee members. What, no members on the Ethics Committee? Let’s wait longer then. Know something, I think I saw a snail darter in one of the toilets on the property. That requires even more meetings. Let’s call this project “Westway II”.
which side are you on, boys…

But if the public could (officially) speak at only one, how is that enough public input? And it seems as if the committees listened to the LMMM concerns but ignored the neighborhood concerns that were raised about the loss of public parkland. I think Diane L is right on target with this one…unless the expectation is that the public goes around the process and lobbies the committees “off the record”…oh wait, that’s what developers do. I get it…
Diane C: wtf #14

TG: I don’t really drink so you can owe me a bottled water at next council or zoning meeting. Maybe enough, seems maybe not enough – kinda a Brady Bunch scenario too between the Land and Parks guys…
Peter: thanks very much – I am swamped trying to organize this election day food drive with Joanne Romano and we have too much to do and too little time. I never made it back on website to do the research, so I appreciate your notes. You know I disagree with some of your comments on Tuesday, and am very insulted by the way you refer to me, but you are entitled to your opinion.
Speaking of which, folks are getting pretty nasty here, and I don’t want to sound immature but I think I’m pretty much done getting my head and heart bashed in, so I am going to focus on some other worthwhile endeavors like the shelter and the food drive. TG, I appreciate it for letting us your forum as a place to gather info and get out the word on the these issues and events, and I will post as necessary to relate new information only.
Thanks! And anyone who can PLEASE HELP Joanne and me, please get in touch with us thru this blog, or TG, or email me at oc607@aol.com.
Diane
Maribeth Becker

I think TG should bring popcorn, too. Council meetings would be much more fun that way. Or peanuts – for those of us in the gallery.

Diane, you’re right, this forum is at its best when it brings people together to work on common goals.

My day is a bit crazy, but I’ll try to help as I can on Tuesday – probably later in the day/early evening.
Diane C: food drive a go

Thanks MB – I’m not sure which school you are closest to (Nathan Hale?) but I will keep you posted here or via email as Joanne and I tie up the details over the next 2 days – Thanks! D
Old Timer

TG:
Raising questions the administration would prefer not to answer is not being negative without cause. Just because you don’t agree with the people raising the questions doesn’t mean they do not have good reasons to ask. Instead of 14 meetings at which public input was taken, there was one. There are a few dedicated citizens motivated enough to spend the time, do the research, and speak out when something is being considered. We both know their efforts are not appreciated by many politicians partly because the questions demonstrate that the questioners have read the documents and done the research where frequently council or commission members have not, but have agreed beforehand to vote a certain way. After a while, that can be embarassing.
The fact that the lawyer for Stepping Stones was recently the City Corporation Counsel is reason enough for people to sit up and take notice. Peter Nolin is a good man, but, IMHO, he should have recused himself from representing clients before Norwalk City Council so soon after stepping down from office as Corporation Counsel.
(City code, at � 32-11. Subsequent employment
seems to prohibit such representation.)
Enlarging Stepping Stones may not be a bad idea. They may be a very worthy cause. I could easily give you a list of worthy causes and would, if you agreed, without any discussion or public input, to vote to provide them free use of public park land for facilities, with room for future expansion.
Sound different, when it is said that way ? Is it any wonder that the public(the real park owners)have questions about giving parts of it away ? Have you personally heard any valid reason why this particular “good cause” should get free space from the City ? You don’t have to like the questioners, but that doesn’t make them wrong or “nattering nabobs of negativism”.
By the way, is Steppings Stones’ use allowed by the limits on the use of the estate established by state law when the City purchased it in 1941?
Diane C: retraction & correction?

In an earlier entry (#16), I wrote the following as a comment to Attorney Peter Nolin:

“You know I disagree with some of your comments on Tuesday, and am very insulted by the way you refer to me, but you are entitled to your opinion.”

While it is true I disagree with some of his positions on the Stepping Stone project, it is INCORRECT that he insulted me, and also to imply he was one of the folks using the terminology negative, etc. I believe I have had a good relationship with Mr. Nolin in the past, and hope to in the future, and therefore have already apologized to him via email, but wish the blog community to know that I misspoke and mischaracterized the content of his comments. I assure you this was an error on my part while referring to my notes from the meeting, and not intended to malign Mr. Nolin or to knowingly submit false impressions here.
Thank you
turfgrrl

Old Timer: You raised some interesting points. First, I never have a problem with anyone asking questions. That’s the beauty of democracy, that we the people can question government. But that’s not the criticism I’m leveling. It’s the misrepresentation and the misinformation that is being introduced to proceedings. And in this post I provided two examples of that happening.

Second, there was clearly more than one public meeting by the timeline so kindly provided by Peter Nolin.

There are plenty of people who do engage government with constructive solution seeking efforts. That’s not the issue. The issue is the continued disregard for process and facts that certain people have, and each time I observe it I will call them on it. It’s time for all of us to do exactly that. Again, having two sides, or opposition to something is totally not the issue. There’s plenty of intense, passionate discourse on many issues in this town that somehow emerge better and stronger for it. There should be more of that.

Your opinion about appearing in front of the council after service was addressed in the updated ethics code, so I think the council recognized that there should be a time period. The new rule did not go in effect until this term.

Lastly, the decision to lease land to Stepping Stones happened years ago. The lease lines have been subsequently moved to allow for Devon’s Place to be installed. That question, of whether to lease the land in the first place, was over long ago.

For the record, I have no problems with leasing park space to private interests, non-profit or not, if there’s a case to be made that it would increase use of the land and be a benefit to the residents of Norwalk. And there’s a long list of non-profits who lease space or land from the city for $1 beyond Stepping Stones. I think that’s the part of government that seeks to do things for the public good, even though I personally may disagree with the choices. But hey, that’s why we elect people to represent us.
Anonymous

wow there is that Morris for mayor again,where does that come from? Thats one way to get rid of the one we have now have his own party think they have to find someone qualified.Its a great rumor or is it?
Concerned Dem

Two things:
1. No way is Bruce Morris going to be our candidate for mayor. Just wait and all will be revealed in the new year.
2. One of the characteristics of this administration (that means the mayor and people in power like TG) is to prevent public discourse over controversial issues and then engage in name calling when the public disagrees with their position. It’s just so much easier to sneak the decision in without the public noticing until it’s too late. Just watch, the next thing will be giveaway $100K+ subsidy to Seligson for his project. A lot bigger than the giveaway to the rich ladies from New Canaan for Stepping Stones.
Anonone

Oldtimer think you missed a section of 32-11. I called and questioned Nolin in September and he explained why there was no conflict:

�An individual who has served as an officer or employee shall not within one year after termination of his or her service, assist any person, other than the City, for monetary or other valuable compensation, before the agency for which the officer or employee served or was employed, in any matter in which said officer or employee participated personally and substantially during his or her service with the City.�

So unless he worked on the Stepping Stones expansion for the City before he resigned in 2007, which he told me he did not, then there isno issue. The point is a former city employee can�t appear for one year on any issue he worked on; sort of like the former assistant mayor did. ?
Old Timer

We have touched this subject before. Last time I asked what facts had been misrepresented by one of the regular speakers at a City meeting. You never responded with the examples. I think you sometimes confuse lying (misrepresentation of the facts), with disagreeing with the administration, or your, point of view.
Peter Nolin listed several “public” meetings that he spoke to, not the 14 you claimed. Most of them were committee meetings where public participation is not allowed. Unless you can cite others, I stick with my opinion there was one before the council meeting this week.
Park space, by definition, is publicly owned, for public use. Private short term use, as for a party or an event, can sometimes be arranged, for a fee, but long term leases for exclusive use by a private enterprise amounts to tax supported subsidy for that enterprize and does not make sense. You would certainly object to building a WalMart at Calf Pasture for the same reasons people question leasing parkland to Stepping Stones. Granted, there are differences, between WalMart and Stepping Stones, but where should the line be drawn ? Why shouldn’t Gail Wall ask ?
Was it you misrepresenting facts with the 14 public meetings or was it Dianne saying the process was not open enough ? I think you believed your statement, she believed hers, and name calling was wrong.
turfgrrl

Concerned Dem: I am thrilled that Morris is not the proposed candidate for mayor, that would be as irresponsible as dredging up Alex Knopp again.

As for me preventing public discourse, I strongly disagree. For one, I have this blog. If you don’t think this is public discourse then what is? Secondarily, I always encourage public participation on the commissions I am a member of.

So while yes, I am part of this administration, I also routinely cover meetings I am not part of and report what happens. Is there a public record by anyone whom I’ve criticized for playing fast and loose with the facts? No. yet here I am, stating my observations and critiques in a very public forum, with a long record, 2 years of postings in fact. You really honestly believe that’s from someone who discourages public discourse?
turfgrrl

Old Timer: Yes we have touched on this subject before. And while I was not in a position to talk about zoning matters, I am in a position to talk about this issue as it relates to the common council. You’re entitled to your opinion on what is a lie, but in this case I provided two examples.

1. Stepping Stones was accused of not giving back to Norwalk residents.

2. That there weren’t enough meetings about this issue.

The first is obviously was false. If you look at what I criticized Wall for, it was not for the question about private use of public space. It was the allegation that Stepping Stones didn’t allow anyone in without a $9 fee. That’s pretty specific.

The second is admittedly up for interpretation. I conceded, and now owe Diane C a water, on the 14 number. When Doug Hempstead rattled off all the meetings that were held, my notes said 14 and that’s what I went with. I was wrong on the number. The parks and rec public hearing was exactly that, and while I did not attend that one, I had a zoning meeting that night, it did in fact happen. The joint meeting was also public and did have members of the public attending. I was there, so I know. So when I said several of them, 3 by my count, were public, I think I’m on safeground to question someone who says that’s not enough. Really how many public meetings on this is enough? Does any one have an answer? Can we not expect someone to demonstrate why yet another meeting would elicit a new perspective or issue on this? I think it’s fair to ask what the purpose of a meeting is before asking for one. At least, that’s how I operate in the corporate world and my expectations of government run along the same lines.

As for Walmart on public land, well that’s certainly a strawman argument. One that intellectually I’d be interested in making the case for, just because it’s been attempted in other states and I know the arguments are but a google away. But to keep the thread focused on what we should be discussing, rather than the hypotheticals, I’ll start a new post later today or tomorrow to pick up on that one. It’s a good topic.
which side are you on, boys…

I believe the joint meeting was the only public hearing. I see nothing on the agenda or the minutes of Parks and Rec that indicates they held any other. If I am wrong, please indicate the dates of the other two public hearings.
Concerned Dem

TG-come on, we’re not stupid.You just got caught misleading your readers about the public hearings, the chance for those who disagree with you to make some noise. Discourse on your blog and public hearings are not the same thing. How about at least 2 public hearings on important give-aways of public land to private parties? Your habit of name calling and questioning the credentials of those who disagree with you is not becoming of a public servant. Maybe you can explain what your credentials are for chairing the Zoning Commission..
Anonymous

The blog has been very fair,where else can you ask if anyone knew Cavalier Excavating and Landscaping 16 Platt Street,
Norwalk, CT gets road work by the Norwalk DPW and is directly related to one of the city inspectors of the DPW?

You sometimes wonder after yesterday where Deering Construction could be involved on a city street yesterday involving a few cars and a personal injury without any safety or signal person where it took many hours to clear up the accident becuase of an investigation could we ask where was the DPW heads in all this?

Where else can you ask or suggest wild ideas and not be called into the principals office.

It is true some subjects are completely ignored by The Hour and not considered real breaking news but we always can come out here and spew rumors cant’y we?

Its obvious we all have issues some are not as important than others but as long as can ask questions and not on crime I feel things are open and fair.

I only ask about Morris knowing who is running for mayor and clearly he isn’t one of them.But it is Google material when you do pull it up,sets the ratings and it does get the rumors out.

I just enjoy a rant once in a while it works for others.

Bottom line go back and look at the train station thread and ask yourself are you a taxpayer ready to spend 10 percent of any project that hasn’t showed so far much thought out well? Some suggest a parking gargage in that project has to be paid for us ,what kind of money is Norwalk talking 40 million? There was 7 meetings before the last one wes night,listening to the presentation you would think they just walked into Norwalk for the first time.

there was a lot of nagativity at that meeting where was everyone else?

Just think about what has to happen within the next year if the power in office is not the power to be,we will have a flea market on property and decisions that will carry some over for years on great deals,deals for the power or deals for the taxpayers?

There is a lot of neagtive thoughts in Norwalk,can’t help wonder what Ed was promised to try and dispell any more.

What about Waypoint,The Hour has shed some light by casting a dark cloud over its progress havn’t they?Its what they reported not what they discovered of course.
turfgrrl

Concerned Dem: I got caught? You are certainly implying something there. No matter, I am wrong some of the time but that’s why I enjoy the conversations here, and welcome the give and take that serves as a 360 view of any issue.

I do take issue with your attempt to back away from your statement that I personally am preventing public discourse. The opposite is true, and yes, publishing a blog is a part of that discourse since the topics covered are chock full of local politics.

Serving on and chairing the zoning commission requires residency in Norwalk. I obviously meet that credential. I’ll assume that’s not what you meant, and instead are pursuing a quixotic quest to ding my credibility, on of all things, zoning matters. Ah, there’s so much other stuff that is easier to target, like my inability to spell, or loose grasp of grammar, but I digress.

You are exactly right though, anyone in a position of making regulatory decisions should be questioned about what criteria they are using to make that decision. In zoning, for example, our decisions come with a list of citations as to why our approval/non-approval is rendered. Knowing the criteria, process and regulations puts me in a position to question information presented in that context. Which I do and will continue to do.
Old Timer

Is it fair to say the decision makers need much stronger credentials than the folks who ask the questions ? Is it also fair to say that name calling, as in “nattering nabobs…etc” is a pretty good indication of the lack of a good rational argument. Name calling is something we all have done, I guess, but most of us outgrew it by 3rd grade.
Diane C: 2 quotes for you

This one from Pulitzer prize winner Studs Terkel who passed away today at 96:
“A lot of people feel, ‘What can I do, (it’s) hopeless,’” Terkel told The Associated Press in 2003. “Well, through all these years there have been the people I’m talking about, whom we call activists … who give us hope and through them we have hope.”

The other you may have noticed in Hour from Pulitzer prize winner satirist Russel Baker:
“Usually, terrible things that are done with the excuse that progress requires them are not really progress at all, but just terrible things.”
turfgrrl

Old Timer: Ooo, complaining about “name calling” is just so fourth grade there. My answers stand, and you have yet to refute or defend the “non third grade” evidence at hand. I’ll repeat.

1. Stepping Stones was accused of not giving back to Norwalk residents.

2. That there weren�t enough meetings about this issue.
turfgrrl

Diane C: Back atcha:
“A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom.”
–Thomas Paine
Hates Him

I’m glad to hear Studs Terkel passed away before he had the opportunity to vote for Obama.

Too bad more pseudo-celebrities aren’t dropping like flies before they can vote, maybe then this country would have half a chance.
Old Timer

The response that refuted the “not giving back” claim answered that claim. If the speaker was mistaken, that doesn’t make her a nabob. She may have been trying to say they don’t do enough to justify an expanding free site on City parkland.
The other claim was not “not enough meetings” it was “not enough opportunity for public input”. We, and that speaker, will probably never agree on somthing as subjective as how many opportunities would be enough, but she is entitled to her opinion, as are you and I. Calling names because we disagree is childish and “nattering nabobs….etc” is one of the less offensive names used by administration voices for people who question what is being done with City property or funds. (see #3, above)
Dictionary defines NABOB as a deputy or viceroy of the old Mogul Empire in India. Sounds more fitting for people within an administration rather than outside critics. A commissioner of almost anything could be a nabob.

#36 sounds bitter, what did the late Mr. Terkel ever do to him ?
turfgrrl

Old Timer: No, that makes the speaker in the first claim, negative. And as chair of the Norwalk Democratic Party willfully uninformed. If you think you are in politics and you don’t know what your non profits are doing to better your city, you are not doing your job.

So now we’re down to nabob? It certainly didn’t apply to the “old media” back in the day either. But as keeper of the flamer of words, I’ll stick with alliterative poetry and smugly enjoy the irony of repurposing term from as a member of the “new media” towards the self appointed community leaders who can’t be bothered to actually improve Norwalk.
which side are you on, boys…

Unfortunatelly for your argument, TG, no matter what you call them, those “negativists” have often been right to stand in the way of knee-jerk expansionism on the local scene. Bigger is not always better; new is not always progress. I thought you grasped that…but I guess your proximity to “power” has infected you with the same virus. Coffee with the Mayor, is it?
Anonymous

Lets stop all the neagtive comments about Norwalk lets talk of the town.How did Norwalk do last night? We did fine look at years back Halloween has always brough a shooting and murder last night was calm .Something positive for a change.

Now this morning there was talk of the town wasn’t there?

shame no one gets it.
turfgrrl

which side are you on, boys…: Knee-jerk expansionism? Oh please. How about a healthy blend of development and preservation? How about a balance between commercial and residential needs? How about being able to work with people instead of against people? Ever what would happen if people decided to be part of the solution instead of being part of the problem? Sorry for the corporate-speak, but it applies.
which side are you on, boys…

What’s the “healthy blend” in the Stepping Stones parking situation? How is that preserving the history of the Park? The plan makes permanent the over-asphalted, un-parklike environment that came with the old police station. The asphalt should be eliminated as part of the police station teardown. It’s that simple. Figure out a better way to park or reduce the parking requirement.

I’m quite sure that the “activists” who protested the police station in the park were told to be “part of the solution” back then also. It’s an old trick to paint legitimate protest as “anti-progress”.

And, in fact, if the City had bothered to listen to some very concerned citizens when Stepping Stones was proposed originally, it would be in a much more acceptable location now — maybe something like the vacant bank building on Wall Street (a location with lots of room and lots of parking.)

Sometimes those “nattering nabobs” are right on the money…
turfgrrl

which side are you on, boys…: Seems like you are not paying attention to what zoning has actually said about that parking Nor what the Council actually said about that parking, in the actual approval. I don’t think anyone wants to increase asphalt in the park, please don’t mis characterize the issue there.

The problem with fixating on the past transgressions of political flunkies of yore, is that you lose the opportunity to effect change in the current. So yeah, Norwalk has really made some poor decisions regarding its assets. The thing is to figure out what to do with them in the future based on what you have in the now. And in the now, you have to balance the needs of the neighborhood, the livelihood of the mansion, the playground, the tennis courts and the museum. Oh, and the visitor’s center. And the city has a derelict police station that occupies space along with lots of asphalt.

I disagree that the Wall street location would have been good for the Stepping Stones. Children + park is the natural setting. Not that Mathews park would have been my first pick for the park

So what does the wayback machine say? First the parking expansion, which was handled in 2002.

Authorize the Mayor, Alex A. Knopp, to execute an Amendment to the Lease Agreement with Stepping Stones Museum for Children, Inc., for Mathews Park in order to release an area between the existing parking lot and the bike path back to the City. In return, the City will permit Stepping Stone’s utilization of 35 undesignated public parking spaces in proximity to the Stepping Stones Museum upon relocation of the Police Department.

Then we have the original “master vision” from 1998.

Hrmm, I see opposition mentioned …. to Costco? Meanwhile, the West Norwalk Association is appealing in Superior Court in Stamford the Norwalk Zoning Board’s approval of Mr. Seligson’s proposal to build a Costco discount store nearby, objecting to increased traffic and concern over cleaning up existing soil contamination.

Well, this was certainly an interesting read, I’d say Costco turned out to be a success, and here we are all of 10 years later and you’d think there hasn’t been enough meetings about what to do in Mathews Park?
which side are you on, boys…

Apparently in this plethora of meetings you cite, no one thought to include LMMM as a key stakeholder until those pesky “negativists” brought it up at the public hearing. The mistake we made was to not insist strongly that the neighbrohood associations and the community be part of the dialgue as well. After all, it’s public land.

No matter how many meetings you have, if y’all are just talking amongst yourselves, that hardly coutns as “public input.” It’s quality, not quantity, that makes the difference.
Anonymous

Did Alex have the remediation plans to clean up Mathews park when he sat in office? Did he kow the scope of the contamination? We don’t and its been years later after incomplete testing and a study.

Did Alex know the city was giving away parts of cresent st to a developer?

He was told about as much as Moccia about the conditions and terms of removal,they didn’t then and they don’t know now what the deal is,yet they voted on what expansion on a report that has said there needs to be another study done.

This is how we work in Norwalk just start looking into the train station and who owns that vacant building.This guy spoke to an audience member asking questions in a tone that deserved a dope slap, she deserved respect but this is the way we work in Norwalk.

Bullies are a common policy at the city level why is that Nick,Fred,Dick,Harry,Brownie,Ed or Hal can any of you tell me why we have that policy?

The woman who spoke who was she some blonde with very little knowledge of train stations? (she belongs to the MTA ridership committee)

Who is this guy? ( he was some guy who hangs around the city meetings)

What about funding and Waypoint The Hour brought it up?

There will be more examples of challenges in the future,the train station presentation was warned about what kind of fight they are in for if the plans presented are the final ones.They were promised South Norwalk would fight by some lady.
which side are you on, boys…

You would think that the Esposito administration, when they launched and budgeted for the new police station would have put some thought to the disposition of the old building. Attached an interesting time capsule of Norwalk 1998. Has anything changed?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9905EFDE123DF930A1575BC0A96E958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
which side are you on, boys…

spam filter filtered my comments and attachment…or maybe tg is sick of the whole topic.
turfgrrl

which side are you on, boys…: Shifting the goal posts are we? If we are talking about the current issue, it seems as if LMM was involved in the meetings. If you’re talking about back in they day … well I don’t know what happened there. But the difference between 1998 and 2008 is indeed to ability for any concerned party to obtain information and attend meetings more easily. If the public doesn’t, is that the fault of government?

While it’s easier now, it’s not as easy as it should be.

These projects that flow through should have every document online in a findable format, as an example.

Here’s an idea. Perhaps many of us can likely agree upon that the process by which information about projects flowing through city approvals is flawed.

I think the originators of the projects/issues/regualtions would say it takes too long, and the public in general would say they deserve more public scrutiny. I’ll even venture that the decision makers would welcome a consistent identifiable process.

Somewhere in between speed and oversight is a problem of process. Information management, similar to what the state does with its legislative issues.

Now, changing how information is gathered and made public in our technology rich world is not only a change but an investment in technology infrastructure. Is this an investment that the City should be making today? I think along technology tracks but maybe there are non technology changes that should be introduced.

Does that address your quality versus quantity issue? Partly. But it serves to demonstrate that being part of the solution, means throwing stuff on the table that would actually address resolving something. Much better than just nattering on about how every decision the city ever makes is horrendously flawed, eh?
turfgrrl

which side are you on, boys…: caught the comment, the debate rolls on.
norwalker

TG – you need to be reminded of the ‘negativists’ who saved the LMMM when the city wanted to put a new city hall in its place. And while you are quoting past rulings, you need to go all the way back to 1965 when the Supreme Court of Errors of Ct ruled on Mathews Park that ‘a park is a park is a park’ and that it is more important to keep parkland such as Mathews Park as open space rather than allowing non-park interests to take over city property. Also, when we are referring to Mathews Park, we are talking about a very special historic park with an incredible history. Steppingstones could be placed in any building space, but after trying others towns and being turned down because they wisely value their open space and historic parks,
SS ends up in Norwalk because we give everything away. We are the weak link in civic thinking and historical mentality. We are the best place for special interests with deep pockets.