I’ll leave it to the educators who post here to talk about the Norwalk results. I will note that the Courant has a couple of interesting charts, here and here. The first is highest and lowest percent of scores that meat the statewide standards, and the second biggest gainers and losers statewide.
Let’s look at Math Highest and Lowest.
New Canaan 90.2 and Bridgeport 10.3.
First, a question, did the Bridgeport Sophomores just fill in their name and leave? How can you get a district score of 10.3? And what does that say about all that ECS funding that goes to Bridgeport? Here’s an idea, give any Bridgeport student who was in that 10.3% a free ride to New Canaan schools and shut down Bridgeport schools entirely. Since after 9 years of education, Bridgeport students have proven themselves incapable of basic math, they can all just run for Congress. Science, our poster children again New Canaan 85.8 and Bridgeport 8.3. Reading and writting offer new standardbearers, but Bridgeport tops the low list in writing.
Overall, the group of lowest scorers actually reflects a resemblance ot the most ECS dollars. What does this tell us? How does bucolic Derby manage to score only 21.8 in reading?
The full results can be located here, link.
Bucolic Derby?? Turfie, you must get out more!!
Do we have any comparisons between NHS and BMHS yet?
Both schools will continue be in trouble with NCLB. BMHS has more minority students, but minority students at BMHS did better than their counterparts at NHS did. Overall, NHS had more students at goal. Neither school has bragging rights. It’s time to ask the superintendent and the new assistant superintendent for their plan to change this.
Do you think they have one?
Aunt Bertha,
I very much doubt that they have one.
Interesting point: Dr. Ramos, former NHS principal and former NPS assistant superintendent, did research on the achievement gap between minority and Caucasian students. He has been superintendent of the Bridgeport schools for a couple of years, but Bridgeport is still at the bottom of the barrel.
Let me tell you something. If you think that New Canaan teachers or Westport teachers or Darien teachers are so much better, let them try to teach Bridgeport students (or students in Norwalk or Stamford or Hartford or the urban district of your choice) to reach goal. These suburban teachers teach kids who would do well even without teachers. The urban teachers face challenges that the suburban teachers will never face.
Anyone who believes that this is a level playing field is an idiot.
Let me tell you something. If you think that New Canaan teachers or Westport teachers or Darien teachers are so much better, let them try to teach Bridgeport students(or students in Norwalk or Stamford or Hartford or the urban district of your choice) to reach goal. These suburban teachers teach kids who would do well even without teachers. The urban teachers face challenges that the suburban teachers will never face.
Anyone who believes that this is a level playing field is an idiot.
To #5: Have you ever read Dr. Ramos’ much-lauded research project on the achievement gap? Here it is in a nutshell: he blames everything on teachers and their prejudicial treatment of students of color. I was so angry when I read it, and saw the poor academic quality of the work, that I could barely speak.
Lifelong Teacher, I have seen the report but I’ll admit that I never read much of it. I knew it was BS without reading it. My comment in #5 was dripping with sarcasm.
It’s amazing how some people go through life not only getting away with BS, but getting rewarded for it.
It is no wonder the younger teachers strive for jobs in the towns like westport, weston, darien, etc. Teaching is never easy, but it is probably a lot less stresful than in a bigger city school. That said, there is no excuse for any group to lag far behind. Some individuals just do not have the ability, but the big problem is motivation. Until the minority mothers and fathers start making a really big deal about the value of educational achievment, no teacher in the world will make much progress in closing that gap. Frank McCourt’s “Teacher Man” recounts his mostly frustrating experience trying to teach english Literature in a New York City trade school.
For those of us with children in public school, we know that your child’s success is basically a partnership between the parents and teachers. Parents blaming the teachers is really not fair, what are those parents doing to help their children succeed. My guess, not much. And throwing more money to bad results just makes the situation worse. It just perpetuates an already bad situation.
Maybe there needs to be some type of ‘contract’ between the schools and the parents that the parents will be part of the solution not just dump on the teachers when their kids can’t read, write or do basic math.
So the 10% quoted is for the Goal/Advanced level –
if you look at Proficient you see 37.2% and reading and writing is much higher at 57.8%.
So you have picked on the low number.
Do not forget that each year tests entirely different children. This is from last October of grade ten. Looks like the non- English speakers and special ed students are pulling the scores down as well and the number of those students are above average for many other towns.
More about educational results have to do with the parent’s education and the support given students for study and goals/results while at home than any educator can do in his hour a day.
Schools lead and provide opportunity and students have to do the learning.
Last, consider looking at the released items on the pages at our CSDE.
http://www.csde.state.ct.us/public/cedar/assessment/capt/released_items.htm
These tests are tough. The subjects are at a high level for 14 and 15 year olds and some are interdisciplinary.
Any curriculum changes need many years to grow through a particular class. If you change K -grade 2 – you won’t see it in grade ten for 11 years. Also not attending class will cause a lack of test success!
“Ya gotta wanna” succeed to do them. That commitment is from the person and is not grown solely in school. The will and the need to do well comes from expectations of the home and community more than from staff in schools. So even when the huge push is there in the town’s institution, the individual student needs direction and expectations for best effort from his family.
Our constitution may state that all men are created equal, but clearly all school systems are not.
It is much easier to teach in an environment where:
1. you spend time teaching and not managing disruptive behavior. This is a biggie in Norwalk.
2. it’s not a given that everyone passes regardless of their effort and progress. You can keep retesting kids until they can pass a test (and make any other “accommodations” to insure a passing grade)but then it all washes out when the standardized scores are reported, doesn’t it.
3. parents not only value education, they actually follow up at home to make sure their child is doing their part to keep up with the pack.
4. parents have college degrees and going to college is a long term goal of the student and their family. (Note: my parents did not go to college but made sure both my brother and I had a chance for a college degree)
That is not to say that many Norwalk students and their families are on the same page as me with this, but unfortunately, the is a large portion of the population that is not. Our more affluent neighbors have a leg up in all of these areas.
It is very difficult to educate a student who does not want to be educated!
So the 10% quoted is for the Goal/Advanced level –
if you look at Proficient you see 37.2% and reading and writing is much higher at 57.8%.
So you have picked on the low number.
Do not forget that each year tests entirely different children. This is from last October of grade ten. Looks like the non- English speakers and special ed students are pulling the scores down as well and the number of those students are above average for many other towns.
More about educational results have to do with the parent’s education and the support given students for study and goals/results while at home than any educator can do in his hour a day.
Schools lead and provide opportunity and students have to do the learning.
Last, consider looking at the released items on the pages at our CSDE.
http://www.csde.state.ct.us/public/cedar/assessment/capt/released_items.htm
These tests are tough. The subjects are at a high level for 14 and 15 year olds and some are interdisciplinary. Any curriculum changes need many years to grow through a particular class. If you change K -grade 2 – you won’t see it in grade ten for 11 years. Also not attending class will cause a lack of test success!
“Ya gotta wanna” succeed to do them. That commitment is from the person and is not grown solely in school. The will and the need to do well comes from expectations of the home and community more than from staff in schools. So even when the huge push is there in the town’s institution, the individual student needs direction and expectations for best effort from his family.
Personally, although I graduated from college (UB) a million years ago in Bridgeport, I would never take a job in those schools. It is too dangerous. The families and community has allowed those children to grow a culture so alien to learning and counter to success. Will they sit for a lesson? Will they listen as a group and have a polite discussion? Will they take a homework job from class and do it on their own and return with it? Few.
Yes, there are many reasons. behaving like a successful student is not the norm. mad do not tell me that is the teacher’s or principal’s problem. Families allow their children to disrespect and chase staff away, and so the ones that stay spend much of class time doing their best manipulation dance to keep order and safety.
USA expects schools to solve all the social problems. Not so in other cultures. Act properly, work for success. You will earn it.
Why should teachers required to have a minimum of graduate masters degree spend their days trying to have control over unruly, rude students who have arrived without social skills and very low vocabulary. There is no push to learn and staff is playing catch up in lessons and fighting for survival every day only to be told they have failed. It is more than a tricky job and trying to instill the love for knowledge not shown at home and in many neighborhoods is almost impossible.
I feel sad for those students who are stuck in classes where they are not getting the lessons they deserve.
CMT scores out on Thursday. I understand there are now 15 schools in the “not meeting adequate progress” catagory. In regards to the CAPT, kudos to Amistad Academy of Hartford. They prove the following:
MOTIVATED students MOTIVATED AND INVOLVED parents DEDICATED, HARD-WORKING teachers INSPIRING, SUPPORTIVE administration = Improved reading scores.
You can bet that students who are behavior problems, uninvolved parents, borderline teachers and insipid administrators are not part of Amistad’s school.
Exactly! I believe families (at Amistad) sign some type of learning/expectations contract, AND ARE HELD TO IT. “Private schools” such as Amistad, can remove students that do not meet basic expectations of behavior and academic commitment, unlikely public schools. They can select from applicants, we cannot. Unfortuantely, we live in a society where it is becoming increasingly more difficult to hold the general public to these standards of appropriate behavior and academic excellence.
AMEN.
Webby you speak the truth. I have taught in Westport and
New Canaan and came to Norwalk because I love the students here. I must say that I have been challenged with behavior problems, kids coming from poverty and truant students who I have called pleading with them to get back into school while teaching here in Norwalk. Would I leave for a Westport or Darien? No. Here is why. I make a difference in Norwalk, I work hard to teach every child who walks through my door in every subject you can imagine. If I don’t know the material I get a teach who does and bring the student who needs their help to them and give them and introduction. We have many immigrants who some times do not even know how old they are. What are percentages? In this case percentages mean money and that is the pressure behind the test. I think it is incredible that our proficient, goal and above goal scores are so high. Look at the sub groups and see the gains. It has not been easy. And it will not be easy in the future. Webby, keep up the good work, I have a feeling you keep it real for your students.
Aunt B.
Sounds like you teach elementary, which as far as I am concerned is the toughest assignment of all. My hat is off to you and all those who work with our youngest students. Most regular people (teachers are special people) could never be success in a classroom with the kind of challenges you meet daily. I’d love to see any of our critics hold up in your classroom for a month, even a week before they would buckle under the demands or just plain, not meet them.
As for me, this morning I came across an old autograph book I passed around one year (1986-1987) and I happened to open to this page:
“Mrs. Webster
Even though I didn’t do that well in your classroom at least you gave me a chance to prove to me that anyone can do anything if they try hard.
Thanks,
John S.”
This is why I teach. Seize the day, Aunt B.
…and thanks to you, John S, where ever you are.
I have taught pre k and every grade to seniors in high school and grad students as my student teachers and beginning teachers. The thing that I take with me is that everyone has a fresh start in my room no matter what grade. I make it a point not to let people give me their judgement on a child, I can make that all by myself and give that child an opportunity to be his/her best. It matters not what grade, kindergardeners are small people and eighth graders are just in bigger bodies, and so on… I believe the scores are what they are and they will always be the engine that propels us to get the information out to our students so that they understand and succeed.(If not on the almighty test then in their more important life.) Here I might be preaching to the choir so I will leave you all with a saying that I had in my classroom one year…It matters not how straight the gate, how charged with punishment the scroll; I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul.
Webby:
Colleague, I love your style. It’s educators like you who hold our district together. Sadly, we’re like a ship without a rudder, but you stay focused on what really matters. Thanks for putting those kids first and showing others that “support” is not just a word.
Aunt Bertha,
Speaking of support, you always were the bolster. If anyone is equipped to give administrator workshop training in Building Staff Morale, it is you.
Some great posts here-
While I taught 36+ years in DRG I, it was not Bridgeport. The kids in all these cities need lots of support and trust building; things they do not get at home.
I would truly advocate that state and SSI monies come with requirements – perhaps proof of their child’s attendance at school and homework returned completed. The repsonsiblity is thrust to school staff who do care, but are not with the child most hours of the day.
Let’s get a push for parents to parent. Then teachers can do more teaching and students can do more learning.
You can not pay staff enough for what they give. Greater respect will go a long way.
On Dr. John Ramos. John Ramos is a very nice likeable guy. John was ineffective at Norwalk High and was the same at the Central Office. To this day, after over 25 years in public education, he lacks any significant achievements or accomplishments. He is a man in a perfect package for what some think is the answer to all our problems. An individual with a PhD combined with years of service in the public education system. Funny, this sounds like Corda as well.
Townie, I have to disagree with you slightly about “Dr.” Johnny Ray. In perfect alignment with the rest of his pedigree, his “niceness” was a facade. He was of dubious ethical character: soliciting subordinate NHS staff to help craft his doctoral work, covering-up and minimizing consequences for misconduct of his son while the young man was an NHS student, dubious claims for payment of special fees by the district also concerning his son, feckless pandering to serious misconduct such as that which ultimately resulted in a bomb attack on a local prosecutor’s home. One could go on at length listing abuses, but these should suffice to erase the notion that smiling and looking very “buttoned-down” do not always equate to “nice”.
That said, I would like to vacate that visit by a ghost of negative administrators past to commend the hopeful and determined nature of the posts by teachers here.
The pattern of test results is consistent: Communities that have populations that are more affluent and educated produce higher test results. Blaming or crediting teachers with that fact is not logically defensible. Perhaps the significant data that should be correlated to the desired results is not “teaching” at all, but socio-economic items such as per capita income, incidence of intact families, English fluency, 2-acre zoning, average level of education, or some other indices not evaluated by our educational “experts”. Another thing to remember is that CAPT is about to go “bye-bye”. The Commissioner of Education has been conducting his statewide “listening tour” regarding a completely “NEW” high school exam that will have exit testing in some areas and “alternative” assessments such as portfolios in others. I think that the exit exams are planned for Biology, Math (Algebra I), U.S. History and some I can’t recall. Check out the State BOE slide show showing the matrix:
http://www.sde.ct.gov/sde/lib/sde/powerpointpresentations/Commish/ Dec5HSReform.ppt – 1995.5KB
The replacement for CAPT will resemble NY State’s Regency model. The old becomes new and the wheel turns yet again.
So, in essence, Charles, Ramos is back where he belongs–in Bridgeport–where he learned all those fine qualities while playing the system and becoming the poster child for minority “achievement” in his student days there. We knew his game in Norwalk, and they have figured him out at every stop in his career–he’s not fooling those in the know in Bridgeport, either– Charlatans like Ramos are the real irony in the achievement gap controversy. We still have some of them in place Norwalk, whose names have been brought up in previous threads. Thanks for your insight, Charles.
Seeing the recent postings about Dr. Ramos makes me suspect that people think he will apply for the superintendency here once Dr. Corda leaves.
Very interesting Charles. Thanks.
And Anonymous – aren’t you the same Anonymous who brought up Ramos back in post #5 and people have been commenting on it since. Why would the BOE even consider it? Because of Bridgeport’s rousing CMT and CAPT scores? Their scores are least 20 points below Norwalk in CAPT. Do you suspect he will apply? Do you think he could possibly be successful in his application?
When it comes time for the BOE to select a new superindentent, god help us if they pick anyone like a John Ramos. Herbert lasted one year before they paid him a few hundred grand to go away. They want to oust Corda after he survived six poor years. And that being said, I don’t believe that Ramos would even qualify to be either ones caddy.
Hi Newbie–I am not Anonymous #5–perhaps he/she will chime in on this-But as far as Ramos coming back to Norwalk, methinks his chances are slim and none-especially now that there are some on this BOE who know what he was up to in his previous tenure here–but then again, this IS Norwalk where anything(including making LM a part of CO) is possible….where is Ralph Sloan when you need him???
Dr. Ramos’ famous research project, Closing the Gap, makes for some interesting reading. A competent undergraduate could produce a better paper. It is nothing but a long, tedious, undocumented term paper blaming everything on the prejudice of teachers.
Thank you Charles for reminding us of the whole escapade regarding his son at NHS. I have heard other stories from faculty about this young man’s awful behavior.
Ralph is probably ROTFLHAO. Norwalk did him wrong and what goes around comes around.
My daughter attended Norwalk High when Ramos was a mediocre principal. I heard him speak on his “Close the Gap” paper, that was less than mediocre. Hope he stays in Bridgeport.
Corda has one year to go to be vested, he’s probably planning next job now.
Tony Dadonna is a nice guy, but his experience is guidance, not elementary school achievement. How can anyone expect him to have a decisive impact?
People! Please do not project who will replace Corda- He is not gone yet! Also, when it comes to a new hire I hope that people like watchdog, Silence Dogood, Charles the Hammer, Webby and Townie get in on the interview committees. Their knowledge of the people and Norwalk make them great people to ask the right questions of any potential new administrator.
AAACCKK – #30- did you have to ruin a good day with those initials – LM and CO in the same sentence?
The “good old boys/girls” network still prevails in Norwalk. When Dr. Corda finally leaves, it will likely be a White (probably Italian, because that is often the way it has been done) who fills in for him. I have seen a lot of retirees return to fill the interim slots, but I have never seen a minority among them.
Elda Kluth (Hispanic, retired from the special ed job) has never returned. Cynthia Barnett (Black, retired as a BMHS housemaster) may have returned to do PD, but never as an assistant principal or housemaster. Dewey Amos (Black, retired NHS housemaster and principal) has never returned.
Am I missing anyone? Am I mistaken about any of the above?
That sounds like reverse discrimination to me. What do I care what color someone is as long as they do a good job. Do we again need to go back and look at our middle school principals? I would hope that other people don’t see it as a “good old boys/girls” network but would see it as hiring someone they feel can help move Norwalk forward – when the time comes. They should never hire any of those positions you mentioned simply to fill a quota – hire the best person or you run into trouble. I do not have a prejudiced bone in my body, but this is too important to be about anything other than being qualified. What a statement to start my day off!
Elda didn’t have a clue, Cynthia was all about the extra money she could make n the 7 habits of highly effective people, and well Dewey has already been described here as less than ethical. We have some great teachers who would better serve as administrators if you are looking for minority candidates. Let’s look forward not back when thinking about our children’s future.
Anonymous – “good old boys/girls” network. The last I heard, Elda was living a happy retired life out of the country in her native homeland. Cynthia, has been very involved and successful in the new career that she began for herself after her retirement. When I last saw Dewey he was enjoying the good life with his wife after over 35 years in the public education field. Personally, I don’t think Dewey would ever come back if asked. Frankly, I have no idea if any of these fine people were ever asked or considered for temporary assignments since their retirements. Some of the retirees that I have seen on occassion over the past years, filling in on temporary basis have been: Ray Senes former finance director at the CO, filling in at the CO.
Former principals and housemaster Tom Rietano, Roger White, Ben Mierzejewski, Donna Vaccarella, Jim Forcellina, Betty Gray, Pat Dielman and I’m sure I may have missed one or two. With a few exceptions, most of these people filled in for a very short period of time. The only interim Superintendent that I recall in Norwalk was Bill Pappallo, who covered after Herbert was removed and Corda hired. I do know that it is a common practice around the state to find qualified and available interim certified supers, principals and business managers/finance directors, who are available for part time assignments, by contacting the State BOE and the private professional organizations that exist for these groups. Both either maintain lists or are aware of retired people who are available to fill in for any district in need. I have no idea who these people are, but I would hope that it includes everyone with a willingness to participate, regardless of being a good old boy or girl. I have no reason to believe that there is something going on in Norwalk that is excluding anyone from participating in any type of temporary assignments, that has signed up for same or made their availability known. If I am wrong, I would hope that these people come forward, or that someone bring these facts to the attention of those that can make a change. I think I speak for most of us when I say that we want the best for our Norwalk kids, which would include the best people available either permanent or on a temp basis.
A 36 posted this.
The “good old boys/girls” network still prevails in Norwalk. When Dr. Corda finally leaves, it will likely be a White (probably Italian, because that is often the way it has been done)…
Excuse me, but what the hell is the Italian comment supposed to mean? Just because a few of the interims who have come back are Italian, that hardly makes it a “practice”. Maybe they were just the best people available who were willing to help out.
By the by… folks, CMT scores have been released for publication if anyone is interested–thought eveybody would be all over this one–nice job at Nathan Hale, Webby!
I have looked at only some of the CMT scores, but Nathan Hale’s results surely stand out. And the reason the BOE didn’t give the assistant superintendency to a principal who knows how to lead a school toward academic excellence is….????
Did he apply? As i am not in town…
also the certification for Supt is above principal’s 092.
So if he had the certification and he applied, then the question is viable.
What is the ell percentage at nathan hale compared to other middle schools?
Whatever, whoever, he/she should live adn pay taxes in Norwalk.
#43: He did apply and he was one of two finalists. The position is assistant superintendent, not superintendent. The certification for that is 092.
#45: The person who got the job doesn’t live in Norwalk, so I don’t understand your point.
NHMS principal not only has his 092, he has a step above that which is his certification to be superintendent.
Well, why wouldn’t he (McCain) go ahead and go for the combo job and then apply for Superintendent when Corda goes after contract expires?
Whoa…whoa..let’s not get too ahead of ourselves here–as good as NHMS scores are, one must realize they do have quite a demographic advantage –everything from smaller numbers tested, less free-reduced lunch kids, and little or no ELL kids–that said, they still do a hell of a job with the kids they have—still trying to figure out the great disparity in Sp. Ed. scores at NH compared to other schools and the state as a whole–perhaps someone can enlighten me here…So the question–Is McCain truly the academic architect here, and if he is, would it be better to rotate him as principal into another of our schools where he might work his magic? He’s still a relatively young guy–lots of time and a bit more track record before the coronation—Let’s not forget Nathan Hale has some of the best middle school teachers in the district in the all-important math and language arts–McCain couldn’t do it without them.
True. However, it was not getting done when he was not there. He is all about what is right for our children to succeed. What do you have against him? I have met him and had long conversations with him. He is a good man and yes he is young, is that age discrimination? Who said a young man can’t do the job?